571 - They're Unwinding from Monogamy. Should I Wait Around? Listener Q&A
Let’s dive into a listener question!
We’re tackling another listener question today for this Q&A episode! The question we’re covering comes from a listener who’s struggling with a partner who recently left monogamy:
Hi Multiamory team,
I've mostly practiced monogamish relationships in the past. I've had some openness, but not full polyamory. For the past few years, though, I've been interested in practicing polyamory more intentionally.
I met someone I felt a strong connection with while he was on a break from his long-term partner. During that time, we really bonded. Eventually, he and his long-term partner reconciled, and because the feelings between us were still strong, we decided to continue dating. This became my first experience in what feels like "real" polyamory.
Looking back, I realize I made some early mistakes, especially around not fully vetting whether he was truly ready for non-monogamy. Over the last six months, I've worked to establish clearer boundaries for myself.
He and his long-term partner were previously monogamous and are deeply entangled on the relationship escalator (shared life structures, long history, etc.). He tells me his values now align more with relationship anarchy, and that he wants a long-term relationship with me as well.
However, every step forward feels emotionally heavy. As they attempt to disentangle parts of their shared life, each new logistical issue (holidays, scheduling, expectations) brings up new tension. It feels like I'm dating someone who is still in the process of transitioning out of a monogamous structure.
My question is:
Is it sustainable to date someone who is still actively "unwinding" from a previously monogamous, escalator-style partnership? Are there ways to approach this that don't feel so emotionally taxing? Or is it wiser to step back until he has more clarity and structural autonomy from his long-term partner?
Thank you for the work you do! I've really appreciated your discussions as I transition to this new style of living.
Warmly,
Nor’Easter Poly Bundle (he/they)
We’ll go into some of the research about stepfamilies and stepfamily formation and some of the structural challenges that are created by the architecture of situations like this and some helpful boundaries that might be a good idea to enforce, like:
Limiting how much info about drama with the ex-partner gets communicated to you.
If there is high conflict, it’s okay to maintain space or more parallel arrangement with metamours.
Being clear about your expectations of your partner regarding time commitments etc.
If you want to have a question of yours answered on a future Q&A episode, consider becoming a Supercast subscriber on a sliding scale!
Transcript
If you find any transcription errors, please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Emily: What are the things that they are willing or able to give? And what are the things that you are wanting from this partnership? And do those two things align? And if they don't, to realize, well, maybe that's not something that I am willing to say yes to or willing to compromise on. And that at least if you have all the information, that's better than just sitting back and wondering about all of the unknowns, because it does feel like from the position that you're currently in, you are operating with a list of unknowns, and I can imagine that that would be a lot easier for you as well if you had all the facts.
Jase: Welcome to the Multiamory Podcast. I'm Jase.
Emily: I'm Emily.
Dedeker: And I'm Dedeker.
Emily: We believe in looking to the future of relationships, not maintaining the status quo of the past.
Dedeker: Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous, swinging, casually dating, or if you just do relationships differently, we see you and we're here for you.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're tackling a listener question asking about whether it's sustainable to date someone who is still actively unwinding from a previous monogamous relationship. This person has strong feelings for someone who's newly exploring polyamory, but they're still deeply entangled with a long-term partner on the relationship escalator. As they're reformatting their relationship, they're wondering if this will ever stabilize or if they're just setting themselves up for burnout. We're going to explore what the research says about this situation and some of our own personal experiences and feelings as we get into this question. If you're interested in learning more about our fundamental communication tools that we reference on this show, you can check out our book, Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships, which covers some of our most used communication tools for all types of relationships. You can find links to buy it@multiamory.com/book or wherever you like to buy books.
Emily: Just a quick disclaimer before we start, we have spent a lot of time studying healthy relationship communication, But part of what makes relationships so interesting is that they're all different. Every situation is unique, so we encourage you to use your own judgment and seek professional help if needed. Ultimately, you are the only true expert on your own life and feelings, and your decisions are your own. This question has been edited for time and clarity.
Dedeker: All right, this is this week's question. Hi, Multiamory team. I've mostly practiced monogamish relationships in the past. I've had some openness, but not full polyamory. For the past few years, though, I've been interested in practicing polyamory more intentionally. I met someone I felt a strong connection with while he was on a break from his long-term partner. During that time, we really bonded. Eventually, he and his long-term partner reconciled, and because the feelings between us were still strong, we decided to continue dating. This became my first experience in what feels like, quote unquote, real polyamory. Looking back, I realize I made some early mistakes, especially around not fully vetting whether he was truly ready for non-monogamy. Over the last six months, I've worked to establish clearer boundaries for myself. He and his long-term partner were previously monogamous and are deeply entangled on the relationship escalator, shared life structures, long history, etc. He tells me his values now align more with relationship anarchy and that he wants a long-term relationship with me as well. However, every step forward feels emotionally heavy. As they attempt to disentangle parts of their shared life, each new logistical issue like holidays, scheduling, expectations brings up new tension. It feels like I'm dating someone who is still in the process of transitioning out of a monogamous structure. My question is, is it sustainable to date someone who is still actively unwinding from a previously monogamous escalator style partnership? Are there ways to approach this that don't feel so emotionally taxing? Or is it wiser to step back until he has more clarity and structural autonomy from his long-term partner? Thank you for the work you do. I've really appreciated your discussions as I transition to this new style of living. Warmly, that is from Nor'easter Poly Bundle.
Jase: Nor'easter Poly Bundle.
Dedeker: Yeah, this person submitted the question, and we're recording this currently as the East Coast is a popsicle, is my understanding. Emily is currently living in the middle of that popsicle.
Emily: Yes, yeah, I believe the Nor'easter winds or the Nor'easter storm just descended upon us, and so I just came out of a blizzard. The blizzard is in front of me, in front of my window right now. Okay.
Jase: But moving away from you now.
Dedeker: Yes.
Emily: Well, we have a day of respite and then something else is gonna come. It's gonna be a lot of snow for the next few days. Anyways, it's cold and this person is also cold in more ways than one. My goodness.
Dedeker: It's cold in their heart, perhaps.
Emily: So, yes.
Dedeker: Have y'all had an experience of dating someone? I wanna throw out a wide range of experiences this could be similar to. So, like dating someone who's maybe still connected to their ex. Or entangled with their ex, either romantically or maybe just like a very entangled friendship still, or maybe even dating someone who's co-parenting children with somebody else, or maybe dating someone and then they get back together with their ex while you're together. Like, have you had any experiences along those lines?
Emily: Those are all more intense entanglements than what I have been through. I was courting slash in the middle of some flirtation with somebody that I had known from the past who was in the process of ending his long-term, very committed, very entangled relationship. And it definitely caused him to be very upset during the time in which this courting was taking place. And I felt like I was almost acting a little bit as a therapist for him during this time of trying to validate him, trying to help him out. With a lot of questions and a lot of questions on non-monogamy specifically. But ultimately that flirtation and discussion of something more ended because to me, I really felt like you need to get your house in order. You need to get your life in order. You need to figure out what this next phase of moving away from being entwined with someone so heavily from the standpoint of living with them and deciding to do like a master's program because you were wanting to be in the same state and city as her, and then all of that falling apart, and then also trying to have a new relationship at the same time just really proved to be way too intense and way too much. And so I felt like, you know what? I'm gonna kind of stop this before it starts.
Dedeker: Oh, so you had to be pretty specific with him around, you and I can't really explore anything until your life situation and relationship situation is a little more settled down.
Emily: I think the whole thing in general sort of turned me off to wanting to explore more anyways, but definitely I think that that was a big part of it, of course. Seeing how that all unfolded caused me to be like, I think I'm gonna put the kibosh on this before it really even begins. Yeah. In terms of what this person is going through, that's really tough when they are fully out of the relationship and then that person comes back into the person that they're dating's life, and then they have to deal with it when there's already established feelings involved. That seems really, really challenging.
Dedeker: Yes. Can attest from personal experience, which I'll talk about later.
Emily: Okay, well, Jase, how about you first?
Jase: Yeah, I just wanted to say, first of all, that this does seem a bit different, right? Because it's not only getting back together with that person, but also there's this transitioning relationship style piece, right? And... Yeah. And I think it's worth noting that it sounds like for the person who wrote in with this question for poly bundle, the frozen poly bundle, that they are also kind of new to this, right? They said they've done some monogamish dating, but this is their first time doing something that's a little more fully polyamorous is how it feels. And then that this other person they're dating is also going through a similar transition from being very monogamous relationship escalator to trying to transition out of that. And I think that is Yeah, that's hard. I think that transitioning from a monogamous way of thinking, or I would say even a monogamish way of thinking, to more of a polyamorous setup is just there's unlearning that is involved, right? It takes effort, it takes, you just don't have experience yet with those sorts of relationships and kind of what your standards are, what you're okay with, what you're not. And so I think that's just a natural part of this transition that's hard. And when you're both doing that transition, it's hard. And then having this person where they've also got a lot of history of certain patterns and things, that adds an extra level of difficulty to it. Yeah, definitely.
Dedeker: That's a good point. Like not ideal conditions for trying to evaluate under any circumstance, but also especially not ideal conditions for trying to evaluate, is this whole polyamory thing for me or not?
Jase: I see. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. As far as myself, for me, it's more often been if someone did get back together with an ex that they had broken up with, they're like, yeah, never mind about you, I'm going back to monogamy with this person. It's like they kind of fully went back. So I haven't had this experience of them going back to that and trying to transition it to more non-monogamy. So, yeah, I can't speak to that exactly. But Dedeker, it sounds like you have had something that's a little similar to this.
Dedeker: Yeah, so I know I shared this story in our book. I forget what the pseudonym was that I gave to this particular ex-partner of mine. I'm gonna call him Mac. I'm just gonna call him Mac.
Jase: Mac, okay.
Dedeker: Look it up. Emily, I don't think that you can furiously flip through our book and find it in a timely manner.
Emily: I was trying to remember where the, oh, it was surely in the Boundaries chapter. It was.
Dedeker: Oh, she remembers.
Jase: Where could it go?
Dedeker: Wow.
Emily: You know how many times I've read this? Also, I read it most recently because I did the audiobook for it.
Dedeker: Oh, you're right. Okay, so you would know.
Jase: While Emily's looking for that, just a reminder to everyone that Emily read our audiobook, and you can get that on Audible or wherever you like to get audiobooks.
Emily: But please continue. There it is. Sam. You called him Sam.
Dedeker: Sam. I kinda like Mac now better.
Jase: No, Mac is good.
Dedeker: Okay, Sam.
Emily: So in your turn of the Mac, yeah.
Dedeker: So Sam Mac Jr. Yeah, so this guy I dated for about a year. He was new to non-monogamy, but he was pretty open to it, you know, I think did relatively well to it. And at the time that we first started dating, he was also relatively newly out of a monogamous, a very long-term monogamous relationship. And I knew that he was still friends with his ex and still in contact with her, but it sounds like the nature of the relationship ending was around some pretty intensive incompatibilities in particular around having kids, right? She really wanted to have kids. He did not want to have kids. Pretty fundamentally incompatible, right? And so I didn't really give a lot of thought to this person coming back into his life necessarily until she did about a year later. And I got a little bit blindsided by it that he decided, yeah, he reconciled with her, decided he wanted to be in a relationship with her. And she was very distinctly monogamous, was not happy about me being in the situation. And it's funny to talk about it now, but the best compromise he could come up with for how to make this work, because he still wanted to be in a relationship with me was he was like, okay, cool. Well, I'll still, I'll keep dating my ex and I'll keep dating you, but I won't have sex with you, because that's the part that upsets her.
Emily: That sounds terrible.
Dedeker: There's also another weirdly funny detail about this, because of course, I pressed him to share more about how he came to this.
Emily: Say more.
Dedeker: Right? Like, explain your thought process, good sir, that, yeah, when he was negotiating this with her and kind of getting to the bottom of what upset her about the whole non-monogamy piece and that it was really about the sex part of it, and that it sounds like he kind of pressed of like, Well, what does that, is that like penetrative sex or is it like oral sex or whatever? And that what she landed on was kind of like, yeah, no penetrative sex. As for oral sex, just try not to do it. That was the quote I got from you.
Jase: I remember that now.
Dedeker: Just try, just try.
Emily: Try not to do it. Get your genitals anywhere near each other's mouths. How about that?
Dedeker: Sometimes you, as the joke goes, sometimes you do trip and fall. We all have to be flexible.
Emily: We've all been there.
Dedeker: We've all been there. We're all human, right? But we try not to. So for me, this is a more extreme situation or extreme version, I think, of then what of what this person is going through. For me, again, as Emily put it very quickly, put the kibosh on that one very quickly, no, that one's not gonna work for me, right? But reading through this question did make me think about that of, I guess, the unpredictable nature of when people come into a partner's life, whether it's an ex, or it's somebody brand new where there is this fundamental nature that you can't control that and sometimes unpredictable things happen and that's really hard to be in that position.
Jase: I think it's, what's interesting about both of your examples though, and I guess mine too, of kind of the just like, oh no, I'm going back to monogamy, is that I think that while on the surface the situation can feel similar of like, oh they're getting back together with an ex that they used to have this more entwined relationship with or Like with Emily's, it's dealing with this breakup from a long-term ex, which in a way, I do think that transitioning from monogamy to non-monogamy with an existing partner does involve a little bit of grieving and changing because any change is grief, right? Any change at the core of it, there's some grief about letting go of that change, even if it's a positive change. There's that's part of the process. But like that said, with all of those, I think that It shows what a wide variety of ways that can play out is, right? Where in this case, they do seem to be doing this. And it's interesting to me that this person, while struggling with each holiday that comes up, that seems to bring up some friction and some struggles with it, that where they've landed, at least for now, is on this relationship anarchy is the thing that sounds good to me. And I guess I'm just, it brings up some questions for me of what that means, or what do they really want, right? Because as we've talked about before with relationship anarchy is, itself means nothing except the fact that you want to build something from scratch. So to me it's like, okay, great starting point for let's get out the smorgasbord of relationships and be like, what does that mean to you? What does that actually mean? Like, what parts do you want with them? What do you want with me? What do those things mean to you? What do you want in general? What do you want never with nobody? Just kind of to get a sense of where you're coming from. Because just that label by itself doesn't really mean anything.
Emily: I want to express to this person that they don't have to feel so bad about, as they said, I realize I made some early mistakes, especially around not fully vetting whether he was truly ready for non-monogamy.
Dedeker: I think that's a big part of it. We've all been there, too.
Jase: Yeah, for sure.
Emily: But also, this person probably thought that they were fully ready for non-monogamy, and yet they maybe realized later on, oh, wait a minute, Actually, and now that I'm in it, now that I'm truly feeling the feelings that come with everything that non-monogamy entails, now I realize perhaps I'm not ready for it in the way that I expected or wanted. And that's not your fault that you couldn't fully vet them or think of every single scenario in which they may or may not be okay with. For instance, in my situation, the person that I was talking to that I ultimately decided not to be with was non-monogamous and in a non-monogamous relationship, but the ending of this relationship was happening because she finally was getting into a relationship with someone else where she felt like, maybe I want to not have as hierarchical of a entanglement with you and explore the possibility of being more non-hierarchical or going over to this new person being my number one. Or my primary, and that that was so challenging for him that he ultimately decided I needed to get out of this. So that's like a whole other set of non-monogamous challenges that is unpredictable. There's so much that is unpredictable when it comes to all this that I understand the challenges of feeling like maybe I made some early mistakes here, but you can't necessarily account for absolutely everything there.
Dedeker: Yeah. And, and, I want to acknowledge the scope of the work that this person's partner and their ex that they're reconciling with have in front of them. If truly the intention of both parties is to create a sustainable, long-lasting relationship that is also non-monogamous, because I feel like in any context, I think the work of reconciling with an ex is a full-time job in and of itself.
Jase: It's challenging.
Emily: Yeah.
Dedeker: That's a big one, right? And we don't know the details of how their breakup happened, who broke up with who, or whatever, but sometimes there could be quite a lot of attachment damage that happened there that needs to be reconciled, but getting back together with someone isn't just as easy as like, oh, flip the switch, great, back like it was as always, right?
Emily: Oh, yeah, no.
Dedeker: So not only is there the reconciling work that's probably gonna have to continue happening, but there is also this ongoing work of essentially, now retroactively opening a relationship that was not open before, which, as everyone knows, especially those who listen to this podcast, is also its own full-time job. Right, also a labor of love. Yeah. So all that to say, you know, I want to have compassion for, I guess, the hinge here who's tackling all of this, but also compassion for Noreaster poly bundle here, our NPB, who is sitting on the sidelines, I think probably feeling in their gut, I would guess that, wow, this could be a big energy suck on my partner and indirectly from me as well.
Emily: Yeah.
Jase: And that's the piece I wanted to come back to, actually. So they said in their message here, over the last six months, I've worked to establish clearer boundaries for myself. I think that's great. And I think to go back to what Emily was talking about, to echo that a little bit of this, oh, I feel like I made some mistakes early on, That's just life that's just relationships. There's gonna be mistakes. Like, don't worry about that so much. But I think that rather than focusing on this question of, is my partner ready for this? Or like, is this something that they're able to do? To come back to a little bit more of your personal connection to them, to kind of say like, okay, if I accept the reality that I'm presented with, right? Like, what I'm actually seeing of their behaviors, not what I think might happen, but what's the evidence I have? What do I see happening? How do I see them react to things? What are these challenges that come up around logistical items like scheduling, holidays, stuff like that? What's happening there in terms of how it affects me and my relationship with this person? And to then think about, okay, are there things that I could do to help improve that part of the relationship? Right? Is there something where it's just a, hey, this, this particular thing is an issue for me, feeling like I'm caught up in your conflicts with your. Partner about scheduling over holidays, it would be great for me to not be involved in that discussion for you to just kind of figure out what you're able to commit to and then let me know. Because it's upsetting for me to feel like I'm involved in a conversation that I don't really have any say in. Just as an example of a challenge that might come up there and how you can take ownership just for your own part in that.
Dedeker: Yeah. So that's a really good theme that you've hit on, and that is something that I'm going to get to later because Based on reading through this question and also some research that I found that I think would be helpful here, I started compiling a list of ideas about specific boundaries and specific requests that could be helpful here for this person or for anyone who's in a situation similar to this. But first, let's take a little break.
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Dedeker: Okay, so we don't always do this with listener questions, but reading through this one, I just kept thinking, there's got to be some kind of research on this, right? Because again, like this is a very particular situation for this particular person, but this is a situation that sometimes we have to deal with in life, not just in non-monogamy, but in many other situations in the sense of what I was talking about earlier, how we don't have control over the people that are in our loved ones lives sometimes, and that causes tension, and we have to find ways to deal with that. So I was trying to look, and I have to acknowledge that there's definitely some research gaps here. Like, of course, there's no research about this particular situation, right, of how it affects a non-monogamous partnership when a monogamous ex comes back into the picture. I was trying to look at, is there research on what it's like for people who are in the middle of a divorce, for instance, because I know that's a common situation that sometimes people have to tackle. But the closest thing that I found that I think will be helpful here is actually looking at research on step families. So in particular, I found this researcher and psychologist. Her name is Patricia Papernow. And not only does she have a wonderful name, but she's also a leading researcher on specifically step families and step family formation. So these findings I'm pulling from, she's published a number of books, but specifically this one I'm pulling from A published study that she did in 2018 called Clinical Guidelines for Working with Step Families, what Family, Couple, Individual, and Child Therapists Need to Know. So in her work, she found that basically couples and what she calls step couples, right? So as in like couples who get together where one of them is like a step parent to children from a previous relationship, that newly formed couples and step couples have the same amount of relationship conflict. Okay.
Jase: However, that's comforting to know.
Dedeker: That is comforting to know. Yeah. However, step couples conflict is intensified and complicated by five challenges that she identified. Now, not all of these five challenges are relevant to this person's situation, but I want to run through them just that you know. I found it really interesting since I grew up with a step parent and a lot of this made a lot of sense to me.
Emily: Yeah.
Dedeker: Okay. So these are the five challenges she identified. One, that insider and outsider positions are intense and they are fixed. So as in this sense that, okay, like my stepchildren have this insider bond with their biological parent and I still feel like the outsider cuz I'm new to this and there's a more established history. Right. So that's number one. Uh, number two, that children specifically struggle with losses, with loyalty binds and with change. Totally makes sense. Anyone who's a child of divorce can relate to that. Number three, issues of parenting, step parenting and discipline often divide the couple. Also makes sense.
Jase: Boy, howdy. That was a big one for me growing up.
Emily: Yeah, really.
Jase: Yeah. Just coming from different styles and that there was already an established however many years of, this is how I discipline my children. And then a new voice coming in in that. There's some cases where the existing parent just changes to the way that the new step parent wants to do it and other ways where they'll fight back. Where they fight over it, others where one agrees to the other. It's complicated, for sure.
Dedeker: Yep.
Emily: My mother would have never stood for that.
Jase: No, right. I think that's interesting is that, yeah, your mom just would have been like, Nope, we're doing it my way.
Emily: 100%. And that's why I'm like, this doesn't apply to me. None of this. But, yeah.
Dedeker: Well, my mom, because my mom is like a frickin NRE junkie, it's like for the first year or two, it's 100% whatever. My stepdad wants to do, right? She's like always on his side until she gets sick of him and then it's pushing back against him, you know?
Emily: That's gotta be confusing.
Jase: Yeah. And I feel like with my parents, it was a little more of like just a constant push and pull with them. I'm glad that I didn't have to be in their shoes to figure that out.
Dedeker: Number four, stepcouples must build a new family culture while navigating previously established family cultures. And number five, Ex spouses, so as in the co-parents, the other parents outside the household are part of the family. Now, I think that the challenges, this list of challenges, the ones that are most relevant to this listener's question are one, four, and five. So I'm going to take each of those in turn and we can discuss. So yeah, number one, the insider and outsider positions. So they do already talk about the struggle of feeling like you're on the outside of an established culture with the ex, even though the hinge here, it sounds like, is trying to change that. But I can definitely understand the feelings that might come up around someone where there is this long history suddenly stepping in. And that's something where if you're still in this new relationship with this partner, like you can't really fast forward that process of building your history together.
Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jase: We've talked about that before with just anytime you're dating someone that's newer than another partner, you're, you're dating someone who has an established partner, even if there's not this same, It was monogamous dynamic. There's still a they've got an established culture that you don't have yet. And that's just a normal part of building a relationship. But you kind of notice that difference more when they still have that existing relationship versus both of you are starting brand new with only this one relationship, like we would typically assume monogamy would go.
Dedeker: And then the irony is that I'm willing to bet that the ex who's come back from their perspective, it may feel swapped. They may feel like, I'm the outsider now. You're pushing me out now. And I feel like your new partner is the insider, right? I could definitely see a potential for that.
Emily: That's tough.
Dedeker: And then number four, building a new culture. And it sounds like when this listener is asking about or is mentioning these negotiations and tensions that come up around holidays and around scheduling and around expectations, to me that speaks to the messy process of the hinge trying to figure out a new culture with their ex that they've gotten back together with. Like trying to figure out who spends holidays where, when, how much time do we give each other? And like that sounds like that's different from how it used to be, which is probably bringing up some pain. The hinge also needs to figure out like what are the things that I want to bring just in general to both of my relationships, not just trying to ping back and forth trying to make everybody happy, but what are the things that I want? And then also this culture in this new relationship with this listener and their partner, as they're developing that in the midst of also this disentangling happening.
Emily: Just to be clear, the hinge is previous partner and now partner again is okay with non-monogamy. I mean, they did not mention that. They did not mention that.
Jase: They're doing it, though, and they're doing it. The question asker didn't say anything about, like, and their partner feels like they're coerced into this or doesn't want it. It doesn't sound like that's the dynamic going on.
Emily: No.
Jase: More just that it's new. New, but who knows? We don't have any info on their perspective.
Emily: I mean, that's the challenge, right? Is that sometimes in order to get back into the relationship, once this has already been established, this new, non-monogamous identity from the, the hinge, maybe that older partner is like, I, I got to get on board with this in order to be in a relationship with them. And that adds a whole additional set of challenges potentially, just from the standpoint of how do we reconcile that reality with this new thing that I'm not particularly versed in, and they quite frankly aren't either. I mean, yikes, there's so many possibilities here of what really is going on.
Jase: I mean, in a certain roundabout way, that could be a little bit of an advantage from the perspective of that. Former and current partner, the once in future, the once in present partner, that for them, it's not like, oh, you've just started this relationship with this person who's really experienced and guiding you down this new way of doing it, that we're all kind of figuring it out. Maybe, I don't know. Something I did want to bring up, though, that is really interesting about this research that you found is this idea of building a new culture that involves all of these new parties being involved. And what I think is useful about being aware of that is that even in a situation where we have very parallel polyamory, right? Where it's like we don't really interact with metamours at all. We date separately, that there's always going to at least be some overlap when it comes to time and scheduling, right? Because that's the thing that there's just nothing to be done about that, right? It's a finite thing that you have your energy and your time. And so it's interesting that that seems to be a point of, if not tension, at least struggle is when it comes to time and scheduling around holidays and those expectations where there is This sense of even if we're not really thinking of this as all one big intertwined relationship, when it comes to time, it still is. And that's where this new culture has to get developed, at the very least, if not more than that.
Dedeker: And that leads to challenge number five, which is that the way that Patricia Papernow frames it is that ex-spouses or other parents outside of the household are part of the family. And there's no mention of children in the question, so I don't think children are involved. But like it or not, this listener now has a meta. Who wasn't necessarily part of the package when they first showed up to this new relationship. Now, that is a normal part of non-monogamy, right? That sometimes you date people who have existing partners and you know what to expect as far as their existing partners, or you date people and then they bring in new people right away or later or whatever. Like you just, you don't know that. And so people will enter your life that you're connected to in some form or fashion that you didn't necessarily directly get to choose. And that can come with its own challenges.
Jase: Yeah.
Dedeker: In her research, she did find, and I think this makes sense that with step parents anyway, the more that they fight against that, the fact that this other parent is still part of the family, the worse it goes for everybody, particularly their own mental health outcomes for children. So there has to be a certain amount of acceptance that Yeah, there's this person who still is gonna be part of the family, whether you like it or not.
Emily: Something that I don't see in the letter that they wrote to us is what exactly it is that they want out of this relationship. And I think that that's the thing that I have the most questions about. It's like, I'm gonna figure out what it is that these two people are hoping for and looking at in the way that they wanna explore their new found non-monogamy and allow that to be something that is occurring in my life, but they're not specifically talking about what it is that they are hoping for in this relationship. And I think that that's something for them to get really clear on is, do I want to be a part of, I don't know, any, holiday celebrations? Do I also want to be more entangled in this person's life? Or is it okay with me that Maybe that's not going to be something that's going to be a part of our relationship. And I agree with you, Dedeker, I hadn't even thought about the relationship anarchy smorgasbord until you brought it up. But of course, that's something to get really clear on. And for this question, ask her also to be like in relationships with any individual, not just this person specifically, but what am I hoping for? Am I hoping for a partner that maybe does give me things that this person is ultimately not going to be able to? Or am I okay with whatever going with the flow, being more relationship anarchist about it, and being a little bit more along the lines of whatever this partner can give, I'm fine with that.
Dedeker: As a sidebar, can I just recommend, well, first of all, if this person or anyone listening wants to know more about the smorgasbord of relationships, you can go listen to our episode 339 that is titled just that, the Smorgasbord of Relationships. You can also Google relationship smorgasbord. You'll find many people in the community have made different versions of it. One that I really like is if you go to relationshipmenu.org, someone has made actually a really nicely designed, very clean, interactable website that will take you through it.
Emily: I love that.
Dedeker: Yeah, fantastic. Highly recommend.
Emily: Nice.
Jase: So I actually wanted to bring us back to the three closing questions that the question asker had to then kind of see if we can synthesize all of this into something that's a little bit more of a takeaway here. So the questions at the end were, One, is it sustainable to date someone who's still actively unwinding from a previous monogamous escalator style partnership? Two, are there ways to approach this that don't feel so emotionally taxing? Three, is it wiser to step back until he has more clarity and structural autonomy from his long-term partner? So I think the first question is a little bit easy in a sneaky way, and that that's a, is it sustainable to date someone who's still actively unwinding? Is that that unwinding state isn't perpetual, and so therefore, that state's not going to stay static. So I don't think it's so much a question of is it sustainable to date someone in that state? Because eventually they won't be in that state anymore. The question I would say is more, are you willing to deal with some of the challenges that come up in that meantime? Right? Which I think comes to question two, which is that are there ways to approach this that don't feel so emotionally taxing? Or question three, which is, or should I just step back?
Dedeker: So first, I want to drop a banger from Patricia, and then we can say goodbye to Patricia and thank her so much for being on the show.
Jase: It was great to have you, Patricia.
Dedeker: But I just, I pulled this quote where she says, you know, the research shows that these challenges are structural, as in they're created by the architecture of the situation, not necessarily by anyone doing anything wrong. Now, of course, I think there's plenty of ways to mess up in this situation, and everybody's probably made mistakes in this situation at this point, but also just acknowledging there's something just about the architecture here. And she says, these challenges are predictable and normal, but that doesn't make them any less exhausting. And so, understanding that this is a dynamic that, as Jase pointed out, may not last forever, but could still be long-lasting. And assuming that the question asker is in a place of saying, yes, I want to stick this through. I want to see where this goes. I don't want to back off right now. I still want to see. I wondered what specific boundaries or requests do you think could be helpful here? I made a very short list, but I also want to hear from the two of you. So like, for instance, the first one I wrote down was, and I think you previewed this, Jase, but, you know, limiting how much info about drama with the ex-partner gets communicated to you or the emotional state of the ex-partner, how much that gets communicated to you. And this is something that I think happens a lot with hinges who are trying to do that balancing act of trying to make sure there's enough time for everybody. Like, oh no, this holiday, I don't know if I can spend this holiday with you, yada, yada, yada. And like, I need to explain myself away by saying like, oh yeah, it's because this person is like having a really hard time with this and this is what they think about this and these are the things they're struggling with. And so that's why I'm trying to show up. You actually don't need a lot of that information. And sometimes getting that information, telephone to you via an ex can be not helpful to the situation. It can be more emotionally taxing on you.
Jase: Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's something to consider if that's your situation. To say, yeah, I don't want to know all that, right? Like, I want to know what you feel, what you have decided, what you want to do. But I think maybe a way to phrase this is that when someone makes a decision with another partner that affects you, it's easy to point at that relationship or at your metamore or at that other partner to say, oh, they caused this thing to happen in my relationship. And I think what's worthwhile to really realize is that, no, at the end of the day, your partner made a decision. Sure, other people were involved in that, but like, that's kind of all decisions have lots of factors that go into them. But your partner made a decision about how they are willing to show up in your relationship based on whatever else. So then it kind of simplifies the question to just, is that something I can be okay with? Is that something I can adjust to? And I found For me, that subtle shift in thinking can really help you to ask that question of yourself and help you to, I guess, kind of either just realize, yeah, you know what? I can't accept that. I don't need to think about this so much as like someone externally forcing this on me and just my partner wants to do this. Okay, I can accept that. Or it can help clarify, I'm not okay with a partner treating me this way. I used to give them a pass because I felt like it was this other person's fault, but actually it's theirs, so I'm not okay. But either way, I feel like it kind of helps settle things a little bit, or at least put it in terms of questions you can actually answer for yourself and can actually introspect for yourself.
Emily: Yeah, I think overall, like I was talking about earlier, just get clear on what it is that you want and relay that to your partner so that the two of you together can figure out, is this sustainable? Is this something that you are able to have a give and take on in terms of the amount of time spent together, the types of potentially like holidays or events that you go to with one another, if that's even a thing that's on the table, what the entwinement portion of your relationship is going to look like, if any, just from a logistical standpoint, like what are the things that they are willing or able to give and what are the things that you are wanting from this partnership? And do those two things align? And if they don't, to kind of realize, like, well, maybe that's not something that I am willing to say yes to or willing to compromise on. And that at least if you have all the information, like that's better than just sitting back and wondering, you know, about all of the unknowns, because it does feel like from the position that you're currently in, you are operating with a list of unknowns and that that to me at least, I know is the person that I am. I hate being in a situation where I don't know the full picture. I just want to have all the information so that I can make an informed decision on what it is that I am going to do in the situation. And I can imagine that that would be a lot easier for you as well if you had all the facts.
Jase: Yeah, now that's interesting. I feel like I'm someone who is a little more okay with that uncertainty in those sorts of situations.
Emily: But I'm not. I'm like, give it to me. I don't care if it's gonna be hard to hear. Just give me the information so that I can make my own informed decision. Yeah.
Jase: Yeah. So I'm personally less attached to that, but I do think there is that question of, is the give and take that does exist in this relationship something I'm okay with? So as an example would be with thinking about holidays and things. I'm someone who's not super sentimental about specific days, for holidays. So I'm like, if we do our Christmas or Valentine's or whatever a month ahead, like, I don't care. That doesn't bother me so much. If it's like, I don't want to do that with you at all, and that is something I wanted, that's maybe a bigger deal. At the same time, if it is like, oh, well, that partner gets priority for all of those holidays always, and I don't feel like anything is given to me, then maybe that's going to feel bad more because of what it represents rather than my attachment to those specific holidays. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it's like doing this little dance of figuring out, you know, what are the things I'm okay with? What are the things that matter more to them to do with another partner versus me? And then also kind of how does that feel as we're doing it and kind of continually evaluating that? It's not like you just have to decide right now or they need to get all their answers figured out right at this moment, but to know that, you know, you're being respected enough that you're willing to stay in the relationship right now. And I just want to throw in, if we hadn't said it yet in this episode, is that also if your third question of, is it wise to step back? Is actually you saying, I want you to give me permission to step back because this doesn't feel good?
Emily: Then yeah, go for it.
Jase: You have that permission. Yes. Yeah, please take it. Right? So wherever you land on this, that's okay as long as you're trying to be truthful about what that feels like for you.
Dedeker: Yeah, for sure. And I guess maybe along those same lines, a less extreme version of stepping back could look like if there's just a lot of high conflict or a lot of unpredictability or like if you feel like this meta is giving you a lot of guff or making your life difficult, it's okay to maintain space there or have a more parallel arrangement with the meta. I know that this person mentioned that they're trying to do polyamory more intentionally, and so often what comes along with that is the pressure to make it all kitchen table polyamory. We all get along all the time and I'm always happy to hang out with my meta. And if that's not the case, if the two of you just don't gel, or if they are nasty to you, or whatever, then you do not have to maintain this super cushy poly family situation.
Jase: Yeah, that's great.
Dedeker: Lastly, I think I want to say, if you don't like oral sex, try not to do it. And if you do like oral sex, try to do it. That's not just for this question asker, that's for anybody.
Jase: It's just for anyone, yeah. Yeah, I like that. And if you're not sure, maybe give it a try and find out.
Dedeker: Yeah, explore. Okay, Nor Easter Poly Bundle. I hope that we were able to warm your heart. Thank you so much for writing in. Thank you so much for sharing with us what's going on with you, and we really hope that it goes well.
Jase: Yeah, it gave us all a lot to think about too, and I hope this benefits other listeners as well.
Emily: Absolutely.
Dedeker: So I'm super curious to hear also, so we're gonna put this question on our Instagram stories. Have you ever had a partner who got back together with an ex? And, How did that go for you? You can go to our Instagram account@multiamorypodcast, check our stories the day that this episode comes out, and check our Instagram stories and share your response there. Also, the best place to share your thoughts on this episode with other listeners is in our episode discussion channel that's in our Discord server, or you can also post about it in our private Facebook group. You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to multiamory.com/join. And you can also share with us publicly on Instagram @multiamorypodcast.
Dedeker: Multiamory is created and produced by Jase Lindgren, Emily Matlack, and me, Dedeker Winston. Our production assistants are Rachel Schenewerk and Carson Collins. Our theme song is Forms I Know I Did by Josh and Anand from the Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is available on this episode’s page on multiamory.com