540 - Banish the Ghost of Relationships Past
How do bad relationships affect us?
Relationship PTSD and baggage can show up a lot of different ways in our relationships, even if the current one is a good, healthy, and loving relationship. First, let’s define a bad relationship and what we mean when we say a good relationship:
A bad relationship could look like one that is or has:
Abusive.
Incompatible.
Characterized by extreme codependence.
High conflict or volatility.
Dishonest.
Unequal.
Imbalanced decision-making.
Pressure/coercion.
Neglect.
Needs or wants not being met.
Boundaries constantly pushed or ignored, or a context where it’s difficult to uphold your own boundaries.
This doesn’t have to be a romantic relationship, too. Bad caretaker relationships or unhealthy family of origin relationships can absolutely affect our romantic relationships as well.
Alternatively, when we talk about a good relationship, we mean one that is or has:
Communicative.
Honest.
Mutual trust.
Mutual respect.
Mutual support.
Equity and equality or conscious efforts toward equity and equality.
Shared decision-making.
Consent-based.
Shared values.
PTSD can show up in our relationships in a variety of ways. You might experience the following:
General PTSD symptoms such as flashbacks, nightmares, intrusive thoughts, severe reactions, avoidance, depression, self-destructive behavior, etc.
Expecting the worst or running everything through a negative filter.
Emotional/physical reactions that are out of proportion to what triggered them.
Self-doubt and doubt of the other person.
Intense pursuit or intense withdrawal.
Anxiety or obsessive thoughts, even paranoia.
Excessive apologies or excessive defensiveness.
Conflict avoidance.
Walking on eggshells.
Wanting to avoid touch, eye contact, vulnerability, etc.
Overcompensating by needing to prove that you are lovable and worthy.
Pessimistic outlook on all relationships or intimate connections.
In non-monogamy, a large swath of people also have trauma and baggage around strict adherence to a particular relationship format, rigidity and being hyperboundaried, or a narrow set of speculations for potential partners. They may also have had a painful experience opening up a monogamous relationship, or just generally bad experience with non-monogamy that can color their perception of it.
When you’re used to bad relationships…good ones can be off-putting
There are a few things about good and healthy relationships that can seem destabilizing when someone is used to unhealthy ones. If you’re unused to honesty and direct communication, it can be difficult to receive it without thinking there might be another agenda. Additionally:
A partner who wants to tackle conflict head-on may be straight up terrifying if you’re only used to conflict being negative and painful.
Relaxation-induced panic.
Kind gestures or gifts might be seen as bargaining chips that will be brought up later.
Requests may be interpreted as non-negotiable demands.
A lack of conflict or drama can be seen as boring or uninspiring.
How to show up in your good relationship
Here are some actionable takeaways we can use to be more present, loving, and communicative in our current relationships, despite having bad experiences in the past:
Be patient with yourself.
Take note of how you speak to yourself and adopt a gentler voice.
Find your own strength and individuality - do things that you enjoy and that make you come alive
Enlist the help of a trusted friend or professional to take stock of what happened in the relationship:
This may include getting help from someone for taking ownership of your own behavior or negative habits as well.
Also valuable in unpacking what pain, habits, or patterns may have been in place for you even before this particular relationship.
Good to have someone who can give you a reality check. “Is this thing my partner said okay, or is this just my trauma brain making it sound worse?”
It’s okay to go slow when opening your heart up again.
Make a list of green flags and red flags for yourself regarding what you look for in partners and relationships.
When something about a partner’s words or behavior throws you off, ask questions before making an assumption.
Find a time (not during conflict) to talk with your partner about what’s happened in the past and how you can work together to facilitate healing (when you’re ready).
Ritual: It can be helpful to symbolize or formalize a way to let go of the previous relationship, even if you know 100% you’re over the person or the relationship.
Microscripts to rewrite old patterns!
Practice accepting love, affection, kindness, compassion, and worthiness from everyone around you, including yourself. It’s a constant practice.
Transcript
If you find any transcription errors, please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we are back answering questions from you, our wonderful listeners. Today we're answering questions that cover a range of things, everything from organizing local polyamory meetups in an area that doesn't have them, to missing a non-nesting partner while you're in the throes of NRE with them, and navigating feelings of guilt and shame, even if a partner is telling you not to. And of course, if you would like to learn more about our fundamental communication tools that we reference on this show, you can check out our book, Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships, which covers our most used communication tools for all types of relationships.
Dedeker: Quick disclaimer, we have spent a lot of time studying healthy relationship communication, but we're not perfect and we're not mind readers. Our advice is based solely on the limited information that we have, so please take it with a grain of salt. Everybody's situation is unique. We encourage you, of course, to use your own judgment, seek professional help if needed, and these questions have been edited for time and clarity.
Emily: So for our first question, we got kind of similar questions from two different people. So I'm gonna read them both and then we will discuss. What are some best practices or tips for organizing a local polyamory meetup? I am about a year into polyamory. I would love to find a local group of people to share resources and experiences. Yes, I did check the Multiamory group. Sadly, no one lives near me. What are some good ways to go about this in terms of getting the word out, organizing the meetings, and keeping the meetings as safe as possible? This is from Building the Plane While Flying.
Jase: Love the metaphor.
Emily: And then the next one, which is sort of similar. What experiences or stories can y'all draw from where people were able to create polyamorous community where there wasn't a pre-existing community? What approaches seem to work best in informal social settings for bringing up the topic, gauging and creating interest in more freely loving ways of being and more closely knit collaborative lifestyles. Bonus points if there are examples of how this has worked for people living in more sparsely populated areas and areas with a conservative lean where caution is a necessity to avoid communal backlash or alienation. And that is from Poly Community Cultivator.
Jase: Yeah. So this is something that we kind of debated about this, because we've created obviously an online community, and we've done some in-person events, but creating a local meetup is not something the three of us have done. However, we have talked with a lot of people who have organized events. We have been involved in events people have organized, some that are new in cities, some that are well-established and that have been around a long time, some very small. Some very large. So I thought the place where we could start with this is just thinking about some of those experiences of what has seemed to make those good and what are some common pitfalls to avoid, I guess, is a way to put it. I think to start out just answering something that I think both questions are getting at a little bit is saying that you're in an area where there aren't already meetups, right? There aren't already a lot of in-person community options. And that is hard. If it's really truly like you live somewhere where just the population density is low enough that even if we assume somewhere in 5 to 10% of people are open to some kind of non-monogamy, if there's just not enough people, that number's going to be a lot lower, right? And then also assuming you've got to reach those people, that can just be hard. However, we have seen some cases of people who were the first person to start a community in their area. And even if people have to drive a few hours for it, if it's the closest thing, word can spread and people can have something that's cool like that. I think that, you know, attracting those people in the first place can be hard. And so looking for anything that's tangentially related in terms of a place to find how to reach those people. So this could be like kink events. This could maybe you could take a risk on like LARPing events, tabletop games.
Emily: It'S going to be like, yeah, magic the gathering, D&D groups, something like that.
Jase: Yeah, totally. And I know we're being a little silly, but it's true, right? Like you'll statistically find more overlap in those communities. But things like kink or if you have any kind of sex positive or sex education centers or LGBTQ.
Dedeker: Support network or center or any little bit of presence there if you can connect to those people, even to just ask the question of like, Hey, is there a non-monogamy support group or gathering that's already happening? Or do you know of any people who might be interested in this in this area? Could be a good place to start.
Jase: Yeah, absolutely. I'm actually curious to hear what you think, Emily and Dedeker. But something I've noticed is that poly communities or just non-monogamy communities tend to fall into one of two categories, I guess. There's the one that it's about mingling and socializing with the assumption this is a place you meet people to date. And then others that are much more like, this is a discussion group, this is a much more structured, organized, not just to meet people to date, sometimes even explicitly being like, it's not for that. And I've seen success in both of those, but I think sometimes where it gets messy is when people are unclear about which direction they're going. And so you get some people showing up wanting to have a discussion in earnest and expect there to be a little more protocol around consent and touching and like how much people are expected to engage you in one on one conversation versus being part of this group, how much of a flirty energy there is that you'll have some people coming in with different expectations there and that can lead to just more awkwardness, I guess, at the very least.
Emily: I think a lot of that is just the way in which you promote it on potentially things like social media or meetup groups or stuff like that. I have the fortune of having lived in two places that are, you know, huge hubs for non-monogamy, Los Angeles and now New York. And I was on a panel recently with Brett Chamberlain and Lovita Locas Sawyers. And Gabrielle Smith, and that was definitely discussed online as you're going to a panel, it's going to be an educational thing. There was a little bit of mingling afterwards, but it definitely was specifically that thing. Now, I see a lot of other things online and some stuff by similar people who are organizing the event that we went to that talk about, okay, this is a meetup, a munch, a poly cocktail, you know, things like that. And I appreciate also that specifically they get into discussing things like, okay, this specific meetup is for people of color, and it's for people who are sober, for instance, stuff like that, which is separate, I think, from something like a poly cocktails where you're going to probably have alcohol involved, which I think can also potentially have some issues around that as well. So it's nice to sort of know very explicitly what it is that you're getting into, like Jase just said. And I'd say that starting there in terms of if you're going to create something and if you're going to promote it, definitely be explicit in communication about what each of those different things are going to be so that people can make informed decisions about what is it that I'm going to, do I want there to be alcohol involved or am I sober and therefore I want to make sure the people around me are as well.
Dedeker: I have four things to say.
Jase: Oh, wow.
Dedeker: Okay.
Emily: So, great.
Dedeker: Okay, number one, one is that I'm late to the party, but I've been finally coming around to Priya Parker's Art of Gathering and that whole universe. So I highly recommend checking out that book. Priya Parker's also done some TED Talks and has a lot of online resources about this. But I think that Priya Parker's work underlines the themes that we've been discussing here, which is like be actually really clear about your purpose in any particular event or gathering and don't just assume I'll just invite people and people will figure it out, right? And so I know for myself, I really appreciated non-monogamy community events that are very focused around a purpose, whether it's like, you know, here in Seattle, there's like a poly foodies group, or if it's like a hiking group, or if you're very clear of like, this is gonna be a book club, or we're gonna do a movie night watching this particular film with non-monogamy themes in it, or things like that. Related to that on the flip side, because this one, question asked about how do I keep the meeting safe is I think you also need to be very clear as you're hopefully discussing this with other people as well, safe from what exactly? Because everybody's definition of safe is a little bit different, you know? And so for some people, it's like, oh, what feels safe is if I know there's not going to be anyone trying to pick me up and there's not going to be any flirty energy, there's not going to be this pressure, you know, things like that. And so is it about creating a group where at least with this particular event, we're very explicit about is this a dating mingling event or this is very much not a dating mingling event? Is it stuff like Emily mentioned where like I want to be safe in a space where I feel like everyone really understands my particular intersections of identity, right? And so therefore like we want to create a group that's for polyamorous femmes or for polyamorous trans folks or for polyamorous BIPOC or things like that. So I think also being clear on like safe from what Now, this also gets a little bit tricky because we can never make a space that's 100% safe from any kind of like conflict or discomfort. So I think going with some realistic expectations about that. And also, if you're wanting to create like a big ongoing community, eventually you're gonna have to think about logistical things of like, well, how do we deal with conflict in the community, right? And it's probably best that like at a certain point, if you're the person organizing that you start to bring in other people into the organizing, right? So that it's not just falling on your shoulders that can definitely help with that. Okay, so that was two things.
Jase: Number three. Oh, gosh, okay.
Dedeker: I thought that was three. Okay. No. All right. Number three is I've really appreciated any groups or events that have a very clear on-ramp for new people. And I don't mean just like non-monogamous newbies. I mean people who've never come to one of your events before. If you think about it from the perspective of someone who's never been to like just like a socializing potluck event, It's really hard to get up the bravery to just show up, you know, especially knowing like these people may know each other already. There may be like already clicks and in jokes and references forming and it's like really hard to break into that. So I know the group that we used to participate in in LA with a lot of their events, they would have someone who would volunteer to be, I forget what they called it, but sort of like the, they called them like the social fairy.
Jase: Yes, it was the, yeah.
Dedeker: Yes, like the social fairy, I think. Yeah, where like one person, they would dress up like a fairy, you know, with some wings or a wand or something or a crown, like very easily identifiable. And in event invites, it was made explicitly clear, hey, if you've never been to an event before, if you don't know anyone, go talk to this person. They're going to introduce you to everyone, or they're going to, you know, at least introduce themselves and like get to know you. And they're going to, they're going to be the ones who are responsible for helping to bring you into the fold, as it were. So I really appreciated that. If you don't want to, I was going to say hire a fairy.
Jase: If you don't want to designate a fairy.
Dedeker: If you don't want to designate a fairy, I think having events that are not just socialization based, but like having events where there's a clear purpose, a clear target of focus, and it's easy for someone to essentially, if they want to sit in the back the whole time just to get the feel of the event, that's okay. So I think those events that are like, we're going to do a movie screening, or we're bringing someone in to give us a lecture on a particular topic, or things like that, like stuff where someone's not thrown into the mix to immediately make all these friends right away, because that's not necessarily somebody's jam. And then the fourth thing is, if you build it, they will come. Build the baseball fields, Kevin Costner. Build the polyamorous baseball fields. I just want to say this to say that, this takes courage and bravery and effort and energy and time and often money that's coming out of your own pocket. And it's no small thing. And so you can also lower the bar for yourself that really, if it genuinely is, all I can do right now is pull together this one gathering this year because I know there's nothing in my neighborhood, but I'm just going to pull it together to do this one gathering where we're going to watch this one movie, right? That sometimes is enough to create momentum and encouragement to plant the seeds for a really wonderful community. So I guess I just want to say, I don't want any of this to scare anyone off. I think the community at large is going to benefit from you making the effort, even just to have a small gathering, rather than trying to create a big, perfectly organized, nonprofit level community right out the gate.
Emily: In terms of potentially doing this long term, I think one of the big things just to be aware of and understand is that if you create something like this, you may be seen as an authority by the people around you. And that creates a particular set of power imbalances potentially. And therefore, that's just something to be aware of and to maybe make sure that you yourself are aware of in the way that in which you interact with other people. This, I think we've seen or heard of from various non-monogamy Meetup groups over the years. I think that people are more aware of it now, and maybe it happens less, although I have kind of been out of the scene for a while, so I'm not totally sure if that's true or not, but it's just something to be aware of and something to keep in the back of your head for, like, okay, I'm starting something where maybe people are coming to this who are brand new and they may not know as much about it as I do, and therefore, you know, that can create a power imbalance to a degree if they're asking you questions or looking to you as an authority. So just. Be aware of that.
Jase: Yep, absolutely. I also just wanted to say from what Dedeker was mentioning about kind of these specific subsets, I guess, Emily, you kind of touched on this as well, that if your concern is more in your area, am I going to find enough people at all? That maybe going for like sub niches isn't the option and actually going the other way and instead trying to attach to something that either feels a little safer to gather about as a way to even kind of gauge some interest. So an example of that would be seeing, is there any kind of LGBTQ resource and maybe planning a meetup that's like, hey, we're going to have a discussion group or like, I would like to host a discussion group for this community and in your copy about it, say like the topics we're going to discuss include such things as and have like polyamory and non monogamy be one of those things. That can also be a way to just kind of start to find that community through these related communities and do something that, at least from my experience, it's like if you do something that's about being gay, there's like a certain amount of, yeah, maybe there's people who are against that in my community, but the overall vibe is sort of like, that's a thing we should protect. Whereas with non-monogamy, I feel like it's still a thing of like, this is threatening enough, we might want to try to shut this down. So kind of.
Dedeker: I think that kind of depends on the neighborhood. Depends on the neighborhood. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Also, don't pretend to be queer if you're not just for the sake of.
Jase: Pulling together a discussion group. I just, I feel like we need to be abundantly sure about that.
Emily: Sure. That's a good point.
Dedeker: Yeah.
Jase: I guess I'm always, I just assume everybody's queer. That's my, I don't think that's totally the case, but sure. Just the three of us. Yeah. Um, but, but anyway, just kind of being creative about how you might create this, but it seems like if you want it, there's a good chance there's other people around that want it too. Or that have already created something and just haven't done a good job of advertising it. So once you start reaching out, you may connect with those people.
Emily: Well, thank you to Building the Plane While Flying and Poly Community Cultivator. I'm actually surprised that we had as much to say about this topic as we did, but I guess that goes to show that over a decade worth of being immersed in this community, you're going to be meeting a lot of different communities and seeing what works and what doesn't. But good luck to both of you, and hopefully you'll create some really amazing communities.
Dedeker: Oh, this is a tough one. I mean, the thing that I desperately want to know is, like, what is the pattern with this partner as far as them being able to be honest about their feelings? You know, and like, I get the sense that, like, if this person has been open about them having GAD, and it sounds like there's an open, relatively open channel of communication about the non-monogamy piece, On the surface, I'd be inclined to say, well, it sounds like this person is trying to be upfront and honest about their inner life, and maybe it's safe to assume that we can just take them at their word, right? And just trust them that genuinely things are fine and they don't want their partner to feel guilty. But if there's been a pattern of this partner feeling the need to conceal their feelings, or if this is a coping mechanism for them of if they feel like it's not ever been actually safe to share any negative feelings they have, Then it gets a little bit tricky. I think that's what's hard here is we don't know how much or like, you know, this question asker, we don't know how easy it is for them to trust their partner is like sharing the truth about their emotions. But even so, at least where I stand, I feel like my gut reaction is like, it might be better to trust that your partner is telling the truth. But I think that doesn't mean that you throw all your concern in the garbage necessarily. It sounds like there's still many more conversations to be had about your concerns about your partners. Wellbeing, which maybe could be affected by the non-monogamy, but I have a feeling that it's probably affected by a lot of different things also.
Jase: Yeah, the fact that you mentioned in the question that you've noticed this difference also in the way that she interacts with her friends and family as well and not just you does make me feel like there's something bigger going on. And you mentioned the Generalized Anxiety Disorder and I guess I would also have a question about that. Is that something that has kind of these longer cycles potentially? Could it be related to that? And that's just something to go through. I think honestly the last several years since 2020 specifically has been a really bad few years for mental health just in general. And I think that for different people that's going to show up differently, but I definitely notice changes for myself. And so I think I'm leaning toward what Dedeker was saying of without any strong indicators otherwise to trust what your partner is telling you, but to ask those questions of, I guess I'm just assuming you've had these conversations, but if you haven't, like having kind of more regular check-ins about what's going on, is there anything I can do to support you? Is any of this related to our relationship or is this Just other stuff going on, I guess. It's like, yeah, I'd want to have caution, but not hold on to this guilt if they're telling you that and if you think that they would tell you if they weren't. I guess that's the tricky part.
Emily: Yeah, it's just a question of even if they want to be honest with you, are they necessarily not being honest with themselves about the way in which they feel about this? And therefore that's spilling over into saying, yeah, I'm fine. It's okay. I'm doing all right. Are they in a little bit of denial about that? I only say this just because I feel like I've been in a similar situation to the question asker where I've had a partner who, you know, had to deal with the fact that I was falling for somebody else and that that was really challenging for them. And I could tell that it was really challenging for them. I do think it was something that I thought potentially needed a little bit of time. And you have clearly given this some time. If it is just shy of a year, this is a paradigm that's kind of intact currently and has been for a little while. But I think I would potentially have a discussion and say, can we revisit this in four months or in six months and talk about have things changed for you? Are things shifting in one direction or another? And try to be as understanding and also as safe as possible in terms of saying to your partner, you can come to me about this. If you're worried about us breaking up because maybe you realize this isn't something that you want, you are safe coming to me about that. And we'll figure it out one way or another. Because it has to be their decision too, I think. Hopefully mutually, the two of you can decide what's best for both of you, not just, well, we're going to continue down this specific path because that's what we've been doing and we don't want to screw the relationship up because of that. I'm definitely not saying, like, throw in the towel with your other partnership. Absolutely. But I do think that it's important to try to be as open and honest and That might ultimately mean that the two of you, you and your existing partnership, aren't meant to be in this way, in a romantic way. But maybe a de-escalation can happen. Maybe something can happen. In terms of your guilt, I mean, that's tough. It's a you thing right now, honestly. You're the one who is feeling that, and it's understandable to feel that. But if you can try to do all of the things possible to let yourself off the hook there to a degree, because your partner is telling you this, and You do have a right to be happy and excited for both relationships. So just be kind and continue to have these conversations and figure out what is really going on under the surface with your partner.
Jase: Something I want to bring it back to is, I think from the question asker, I get the sense just from the way they wrote this question that they do feel a lot of care for their existing partner, right? For this long-term partner. And I think that's great. So I do want to be clear that like none of what we're suggesting is to say like, oh, if it isn't working, that's their problem, or you should de-escalate with them or anything like that. I think it's more about trying to open up those discussions as much as possible and to also let yourself off the hook, like Emily said. But I do want to say that I know we've been a little bit general with this because it's just so hard with all the details. But I do feel like there's one part of your question that I can answer in a more clear way, and that is about the opinions from your friends. So you say your poly friends say that mono poly never works.
Emily: Wrong.
Jase: Sorry, your friends are wrong. They don't know what they're talking about. It absolutely can work. It does work. It's hard. It's not super common, but it does absolutely happen. You can check out the Mono Corn Sanctuary Facebook group for a bunch of people that are doing it. We've had people on the show before. Who've talked about that's how they've done their relationship for a long time. So those friends are wrong. That fact that they said is wrong. And then on the other side, my non-poly friends insist, if I actually love my original partner, I should break up with the new one. And I think if you're a listener of this show, you already know that that's not true and that that's not how that works. But I can at least definitively come in and back you up by saying, yeah, both of these groups of friends are wrong.
Dedeker: Yeah, just don't listen to any friends.
Emily: Well, listen to the ones that are correct.
Dedeker: Don't listen to the ones that are not. No, no, never listen to your friends.
Jase: You heard it here first on the Polyamory Podcast. Don't listen to anyone. But anyway, so just to kind of back you up there that, like, I know that can be hard if you feel like all the voices around you are telling you that you're fundamentally wrong for doing what you're doing on one side or the other, and that's not necessarily true. And that also, it sounds like your partner is able to date people, and you didn't say specifically that they had no interest in that. Like they've decided, I am monogamous while you're non-monogamous, but more that they just haven't been dating. That's kind of the sense I got from that more, which is also a little different there as well. And maybe that could change as someone who, who did not date for several years somewhat recently, especially since 2020, that I can, I can relate to that too. Sometimes it's just I've got so much going on and struggling emotionally or physically or whatever, and that's not. Just not something I'm interested in. So just to throw that out there, that that could also be going on.
Dedeker: Yeah. Just the final piece, I think, to piggyback off what Jase was saying about never listening to any friends ever that you have.
Jase: I was not the one that said that. That was you.
Dedeker: This is so hard. This comes up sometimes where, because this is not the, I mean, we've heard stories like this before, where two people open up and it's clear that one person is having a much harder time than the other. Usually it's like there's one person who's much more gung-ho about it and the other person is much more hesitant and There can be this, I suppose, urge to be somewhat paternalistic and patronizing and kind of decide, Hey, I can tell that you can't handle this. And so I'm going to make this executive decision that I'm going to end the relationship or we're going to close the relationship or something like that. And even if it's true that the other person is struggling, like I find that those sort of one sided decisions don't tend to go down very well because like no one likes to be told what they can and can't handle.
Jase: Yeah.
Dedeker: Right. So that's what gets under my skin here. And this is why we say never listen to any friends ever, especially if they're telling you that, yeah, you need to make this kind of one-sided decision about what your partner's emotional capacity is.
Dedeker: And we're back, and it's time to dive into our last question for this episode. How do I deal with missing my non-nesting partner when I I can only see him once a week. I live with my nesting partner and my other partner of approximately seven months lives around a 45 minute drive away. I already drive a lot for work. My schedule is in general pretty full. And so I usually see my non nesting partner once a week ish. Whenever something major pops up, like trips, work related things, this can be even less. And I am, this is in all caps, by the way, struggling with missing him. The NRE is still really strong and I just want to be around him a lot more than I currently am. At the same time, I know both of our schedules don't really allow more than what we're getting now, so the issue becomes more of how do I deal with missing him? I love that I miss him and I love that I'm so excited to see him, but it can also make me sad, preoccupied, etc. when I let myself ruminate on that fact. I'm already distracted enough by work and hobbies, so that's also not really something I feel I can use to help me move my thoughts away from him and us. And that is sent in by Yearning in Europe. Oof, been there.
Emily: Can I quote Rumi and be just.
Dedeker: Like a real white woman at a wedding right now?
Jase: Wow, okay, do it, do it, I love it.
Dedeker: I shouldn't have said that because I don't think I can quote it perfectly. So can I be a white woman at a wedding who is like too drunk to quote Rumi, but can maybe paraphrase Rumi? Yeah, go nuts. There's this Rumi poem that is about It frames this metaphor of a dog that whines after its owner when the owner is gone, and how the dog whining is the dog's love for its owner. And he kind of frames that we should all be so lucky, essentially, to have yearning for somebody or something in that way, because it's an indicator of our love. And I believe in the poem, Rumi was kind of framing it in a love of God specifically. But that's always stuck with me. Maybe that's an over romanticized way of looking at it. But I know for myself when I am having moments of either missing someone or really yearning for something that like sometimes that's a comfort to me that like I'm actually kind of lucky to be in this position to feel in this way. And especially when you're in NRE where it's very easy to access these like very deeply embodied feelings of loving someone and wanting someone that like there's something about that that is actually quite special. It's like a very special type of suffering.
Jase: Yeah, I mean, that's, I think that's a big part of a lot of love songs and love poems is kind of that, the specialness of that suffering, that it is like this great feeling and also kind of shitty because there's that longing when you're not around them, which is basically describing new relationship energy and the, the Havoc that it wreaks on our brains, chemically speaking. Yeah, boy, I can really. Sympathize with this person. It's, I mean, it's been a while since I've been in this kind of a situation, but that feeling of being preoccupied by it, and I can understand the frustration of that. And I think maybe it could help to just romanticize the concept and try to really lean into enjoying that feeling, but also, but also it's hard. It's hard to come up with suggestions here too, because you're saying, you know, that you're already pretty busy, that you've got a lot of hobbies, you've got a lot of stuff going on. On. I feel like I do always need to ask the question of with all of that, how much of that is exercise? I've definitely found that that can help. I know.
Dedeker: Just getting in some kind of healthy movement, you mean?
Jase: Well, again, specifically, I'm going to mention strength training that doing something like that, and that could be something you do at home, or it could be something you go to a gym, like Dedeker and I go to our little community center gym. Down the street that's super cheap. And there's something about the, like, putting your body under a stress like that that can kind of help to, I guess, like, get out of those kind of obsessive patterns or those kind of preoccupied States. I've found it's helpful in a lot of different situations. Like, if I'm really angry about something, that can help. Also, if I'm sad about something, I mean, I have had a couple times where I've been at the gym and, you know, a couple sets in. I'm like, I'm gonna start crying in this gym, so instead I'm gonna go for a walk or something. Like, sometimes that happens, too. But I think really it's. It's an underrated mental health thing to do, and specifically strengths. So not just, like, running or doing a treadmill or something, but for whatever that means for you. But something that's hard, something that's, like, you feel like you're having to kind of strain against it, whatever that weight actually is for you or whatever that could be. But I've definitely found that to be helpful. And it does seem like there's a fair amount of research to back that up from a. Health standpoint as well.
Emily: I love that lovely reframing of what you just talked about, Dedeker, because it can feel really exciting and lovely to care about someone this much, but we also know that it's a finite time that it's going to go away most likely eventually. So if you can embrace the fact that this is happening right now, and that it's lovely to be in the midst of these feelings while also knowing it's temporary and taking a little bit of potentially solace in that fact too, that it's not going to last forever. You can hopefully be excited about the fact that you're going through it and how neat that is, but then also it's gonna go away eventually, so enjoy the good parts of it while it lasts. I have absolutely, I am someone especially before, I think my mid 30s just got so wrapped up in NRE with people.
Jase: Yeah.
Emily: A little bit to my detriment, honestly. I would have like obsessive tendencies and cry in the shower when I knew like they were on a trip and I wasn't with them or whatever. Absolutely. I've been there. And so I am now within a new relationship that I'm in currently, like very much trying to make sure that I manage my own expectations of what's going to happen within it. Try to take things as slowly as possible personally, and that may mean, you know, realizing that, okay, I'm only seeing this person once a week, and that's okay, because it allows me some distance from the intensity of the emotions. Maybe it's causing those emotions to be even bigger and scarier, but if you can try to have some perspective on the moment and do some reframing and also like take time for friends. I didn't hear anything about friends here. It was work and hobbies, which are very like self-focused. But if you can do some things where other people in your life are hopefully bringing you some joy as well, I think that that's really important because you can channel some of that energy into cultivating and reigniting fun things to do with them.
Jase: I love that suggestion of mentioning the friend thing. It was making me realize that there have been times where if I'm feeling down or I'm just kind of struggling more or I'm feeling preoccupied, and it's like, Ugh, I've got to go do this thing with my friends. I'm like, but I'm just so focused on this other thing that once I'm actually transition into now I'm engaging with another human being, even if it's just online, like we're playing an online game and voice chatting with each other, It's just like, I think as a human, it gets your brain to start thinking about how do I connect to another human instead of just cycling on whatever's going on in your own brain.
Dedeker: Yeah.
Jase: So that's such a cool suggestion, Emily. Wow. I love that. I'm gonna use that one more myself.
Emily: Good. Excellent.
Dedeker: And if you too wish to be a white woman at a wedding, you can look up the poem Love Dogs by Rumi. That's what it's called. It's really beautiful. I'm not gonna read it 'cause I think it'll make me cry. On air, so I'm not gonna do it, but would highly recommend.
Emily: What a rare thing to have happen. I know.
Dedeker: I can't be the one who cries on this show. That's already Emily's forte. Jase sometimes too.
Emily: Sometimes me too, yeah.
Jase: Not less so, but no.
Emily: No, that's not true.
Jase: There's maybe been a couple where Dedeker's gotten a little choked up.
Dedeker: I do my crying in private.
Emily: Sure.
Dedeker: Yeah. I do my crying in the comfort of my own home.
Jase: Yeah, I do mine in the middle of the gym after a couple of sets.
Emily: Gosh, yeah, my partner and I were reading something about Legend of Korra and the queerness about that, and I was just like weeping.
Dedeker: Aw.
Emily: I was like, okay, this is really awkward, but... You know what?
Dedeker: I cried in a coffee shop this morning, actually. Really? Reading my book, yeah.
Jase: Oh, you did just finish your book, yeah.
Dedeker: Yeah, yeah, I finished reading Women Talking by Miriam Toews, and it really touched me at the end. Only one tier, though.
Emily: I've just shown just a single solitary tier.
Jase: God, it's like the tier someone Everyone cries in a movie.
Dedeker: Exactly. That was-- It's the sexy cry.
Emily: There you go.
Jase: Sexy one cheek, one tear, while stoically staring out. No, it's not.
Dedeker: No redness. Yes.
Jase: No, no, no, no, no.
Emily: Damn. Well, I do all of those things. I do just want to say, like, all three of us have been there, and it sucks, and it is powerful and wonderful, so just enjoy it while it lasts, because it won't be there forever. And you may question again later on in your life, Am I ever going to feel this again? But you probably will, and you can enjoy that when it happens at that point in your life. But right now, just embrace it and also give it some perspective and channel your energy into many, many things that are not just ruminating on the fact that you miss this person so much.
Dedeker: Thank you so much for writing in, yearning in Europe, and best of luck.