555 - Reclaiming Spirituality as a Queer, Polyamorous Person with Brian G. Murphy
Welcome back, Brian!
We're thrilled to be welcoming back Brian G. Murphy as a guest to the show!
Brian is an organizer, author, and certified relationship coach helping LGBTQ+ and polyamorous people build thriving relationships on their own terms... without shame or "should"s. Brian is also co-founder of QueerTheology.com, a resource hub, podcast, and online community, which explores how queerness and spirituality enrich one another. He has spoken at colleges, congregations, and conferences across the country and his work has been featured in Vice, BuzzFeed, The Huffington Post, The Advocate, Upworthy, and NBC News. Brian is the author of Love Beyond Monogamy, and co-author of Queers The Word and Reading The Bible Through Queer Eyes.
During this episode we pose the following questions and discussion topics to Brian:
Why should we care about spirituality at all?
What’s the most common reaction you get when you explain to people what it is that you do? What’s the most surprising reaction you’ve gotten?
What do you think most people get wrong about modern spirituality? What do you think the polyamorous community gets wrong about spirituality?
You reference specific deities like God or Jesus or Buddha very rarely throughout the book. Instead, you often use this term That Which Is Bigger Than Ourselves. Can you talk more about that?
Let’s talk about the sacred texts for the non-monogamous. Why call them sacred texts?
RADAR as ritual and ritual as spiritual practice.
Prophet-like roles in the community.
You highlight how we can experience sensations of NRE when coming to a new faith or spiritual practice, which can also transform into ERE over time - bringing with it all the pros and cons that we experience in our personal relationships as well.
It’s interesting to draw these parallels, but isn’t it risky? How do we refer to non-traditional relationships and subcultures as having spiritual elements without straying into the territory where we’re self-aggrandizing, acting like this is a religion or a cult?
Find more about Brian on social media @thisisbgm, and be sure to check out QueerTheology.com!
Transcript
If you find any transcription errors, please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Brian: My friends and I were going to Fire Island every year for this queer beach vacation. And at some point after a few years, I was like, oh, queer people have been coming here for decades, and queer people have come here and grieved and celebrated and gone through all the same life events that I'm going through. And I was noticing these parallels and just naming for myself, oh, this thing that we're doing is more than just a vacation. And starting to talk about that with my friends, naming it as like, oh, this is not just a vacation. This is also our pilgrimage and oh, this is really special. And we're gonna start calling ourselves family.
Jase: Welcome to the Multiamory Podcast. I'm Jase.
Emily: I'm Emily.
Dedeker: And I'm Dedeker.
Emily: We believe in looking to the future of relationships, not maintaining the status quo of the past.
Dedeker: Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous, swinging, casually dating, or if you just do relationships differently, we see you, and we're here for you.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're joined by Brian G. Murphy. Brian is an organizer, author, and certified relationship coach, helping LGBTQ+ and polyamorous people build thriving relationships on their own terms without shame or shoulds. Brian is also the co-founder of QueerTheology.com, a resource hub, podcast, and online community which explores how queerness and spirituality enrich one another. Brian's also the co-author of Queers the Word and Reading the Bible Through Queer Eyes, and his new book Love Beyond Monogamy just came out in September. Brian, thank you so much for joining us today.
Brian: Thank you so much for having me, Jase, and Emily, and Dedeker. It's so great to be back.
Emily: Yay!
Dedeker: Yeah.
Jase: So I wanted to start with that. You were on our show back in 2019, four years ago. And we had you on to talk episode 242, which we just called Queer Theology. And the response that we got to that episode was really interesting. There were several responses people had, which was, oh, that was a really interesting episode. This is my experience, a lot of that. But we also had a significant portion of people who were like, How dare you talk about the Bible or Christianity? Because these are the two things that have hurt me the most and are irredeemable. You should never speak of them. I can't believe you did that. And so it kind of leads me to my opening question, which is maybe one we'll come back to a few times in this episode. But it's why should we care? Why does spirituality matter? Why should we care about any of this?
Brian: I have two answers. And I think the first one addresses that sort of reactive, how dare you speak about this? These are things that hurt me. I never want to even hear them uttered again. And to me, that visceral reaction indicates that there's maybe some healing left to be done. Can I curse?
Dedeker: Yes.
Brian: I don't give a fuck if you go to church, synagogue, mosque. If Christianity, the Bible, Judaism, whatever your religious background is, is not your jam, oh my God, go with gusto. My creative partner, Shannon, that I do QueerTheology.com with, we often say at least half of our work is helping folks who have been burned by religion leave that and leave that fully and leave that well. And so I want to get you to a place where just the mere mention of the Bible or Christianity or spirituality on a podcast that you love does not send you into a spiral. So one of the reasons to engage it is if it has hurt you, which it has hurt me, it's hurt lots of people, is how can you get to a place where you're not triggered by people existing in the world as spiritual people? Any discussions of Christianity or the Bible, not that you need to engage with it, but because it often shows up when I work with clients, who are not religious at all. A lot of folks are still scared of a God they don't believe in, carrying around these shoulds, the way relationships should work, what is good sex or bad sex. And so really unpacking those messages and writing new ones, whether that is within your spiritual tradition that you came from, within a new one that you find new home in, or whether that's just leaving entirely, but leaving fully and healthfully and then coming up with the values that you do believe in and the practices that you do want to commit to. So that's one part of it. And then the other answer for the why bother is that I define spirituality quite broadly. And so for me, it's not about, you got to go to church to find God there. It's how is God present, the divine present in one night stands just as much as long-term relationships, in back rooms and back alleys just as much as synagogues and churches and mosques. And Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel talks about awe and wonder as a central orientation of the religious person's experience of the divine. And so that's what I'm talking about of how is your relationships, your polycule, your body already really good and really special? And that's just what sacred or holy means. And you too, even if you exist outside of a religious tradition, deserve to be able to say, I am holy, period.
Dedeker: Is that a common reaction that you get when you explain to people what it is that you do? Some people who are confused or shocked or oh my God, how could you marry these two things together? What do you think is the most common reaction you get?
Brian: Yeah, I think the most common reaction that I get is, Wait, are you religious? And I'm like, well, it depends on how you define that word. I think often sometimes people will be like, I don't want to, Church is not my thing, or Synagogue is not my thing, or I don't care about services. And then if they are curious, they ask a follow-up question. And I talk more about the work that I do and finding the sacred in all of our relationships and really honoring all different types of connection and reconnecting with our bodies and understanding gay dance clubs and drag shows and annual vacations to Fire Island as all of that, as being religious experiences. What is surprising to me actually is how many people who are not at all religious light up at that. And it either soothes some sort of, I grew up Christian, I got taught really awful things about sex in my body, and it's wild to hear communion and cum shot in the same sentence, that does something healing for me. And also it's neat to think about, oh yeah, something really special does happen. Not all the time. Sometimes there's lots of bad hookups, but I have had hookups off of Grindr with a total stranger that did feel really special in a way that I couldn't quite put my name to it. And you giving language to that, I always thought of these one night stands as sorted or something I was doing on my way to a quote unquote real relationship. And the way that you are able to speak about all of it as being special and meaningful makes me feel less bad about the way that I live my life. And so I was surprised at how much it resonates with folks who are not LGBT Christians or queer Jews.
Emily: Can you talk a little bit about your current relationship to spirituality or if you are religious, what that means to you? Because you said, well, it depends on what religion means to someone, but what does it specifically mean to you?
Brian: A few years ago, I said to my partner, my live-in partner, long-term partner, now husband, Peter, it's kind of funny because I think I've been kind of getting religious over the past few years. And he was like, what are you talking about? You've run a website called QueerTheology.com for the past 12 years. How do you think you're just becoming religious? And I think what I meant by that was, well, yeah, but previously I was the sort of religious of blowjobs are blessings. And now I sometimes go to Shabbat services. I converted to Judaism a few years ago, which is a whole other conversation, which I joke was either two decades or two years in the making, depending on how you count it. But I am engaged in more traditional religious practices over the past few years since last we talked. And I think one of the reasons why I find that to be meaningful is a connection, it's a ready-made community of folks that share lots of similar values. And there's something about connection through time of, I'm not the first person to have the idea that sex can be good. I'm not the first person to have the idea that it's important to feed the hungry, take care of the sick. I'm not the first person to have the idea that it's important to organize for justice and to have some sort of rootedness across space and also through time with other people who share similar values and outlooks on life and just wrestle with life together. And as well as to have some practices that soothe me sometimes when I need to be soothed and inspire me other times when I need to be inspired to go out and be brave and kick ass for justice or to confront the police or whatever it might be that takes some courage. And so there are some practices, some well-worn time-tested practices that I can rely on by myself and in a community that help me be the best version of myself.
Dedeker: Well, so related to that in the book, you reference specific deities very rarely, right? You don't do a ton of specific references to God or to Jesus or to Buddha. And instead, you often use this term That Which Is Bigger Than Ourselves, capitalized. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
Brian: By most classic definitions of the word, I'm an atheist. I'm certainly not a man in the sky. I don't really even believe that there's a nebulous all-gender force that is intervening in some sort of supernatural way. Even, I know some people are into the vibes and the energy, and I'm not even really sure. I think those are good metaphors in the same way that God or Buddha or Jesus can be good metaphors, but I'm not even really sure that there's vibes happening. And also a number of people very close to me got sober through AA and credit that program.
Jase: Yeah.
Brian: But they're like, my sponsor told me, I don't have to believe in God. I can substitute group of drunks, G-O-D. There's just something bigger than me, right? That I'm a part of. I have ADHD, I have anxiety sometimes, it's really easy to turn inward and spiral into. I am not alone. I'm not the only person to go through this. I am held by and responsible to a wider community. And that we can do, we're all greater than the sum of our parts, and we can do more together. And this collaboration, cooperation, interdependence, I think, is a deeply human trait and helps us rise to the highest versions of ourselves.
Emily: Yeah, I think so often we talk right now, especially about isolationism, and that is something that I think a lot of young men are dealing with, a lot of just people in general. And I have on many of the podcasts that I listen to, heard people talking about the fact that we are not going to church as much anymore and that we are not having these kind of communities that we once did of a group of like-minded people to come back to and to feel some sense of community around. And I don't know if you can talk about that a little bit more. Is that something that maybe you're trying to foster a bit with the work that you do?
Dedeker: Yeah.
Brian: One of the things that I talk about in the book is that for many people, if you move to a new city, you might previously go to church. You might, if you're Jewish, go shul shopping, find a synagogue to go to. If you're polyamorous and you move to a new city, you might go to poly cocktails or to some other poly mixer. And those happen on a set schedule, often at the same place. And that could be your first foray into a new community if you move, or if you're exploring polyamory for the first time. And so if you're a person that wants to engage with Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, and you can find a community that fits your values and your beliefs and your practices, great. And also, the communities we're a part of don't have to be a traditional religious community to be meaningful and to connect us to that which is bigger than ourselves. My partner is a part of Front Runners New York in New York City. It's an LGBT running club. It's been around for decades and decades and decades. There are some people who were around in the club back pre-AIDS crisis, right? And so there's hundreds of members. They meet Saturday mornings, Wednesday evenings. They've just added runs in Brooklyn. And so that is a real community of, yeah, you're going to Tehran, but also some people walk, some people are very fast, some people just go to the social events. And those values are maybe a little bit of athleticism, certainly a value of community. They do service events sometimes. So there's an act of service to that, visibility, and so that's one way that you can find meaningful community. So I think it doesn't have to be church. I understand why people go to church or synagogue because they're there and they're in lots of places. But finding places or building your own communities where you come together regularly, you have some sort of intention about it, and you are supporting one another. That also could look like your chosen family and hosting dinners on a regular basis for your community. There's lots of different ways to do it. Making your own is a little bit more advanced player, but sometimes you have to do that because there's not something that serves you. Also, I used to go to the Philadelphia Transgender Health Conference every year for many, many years. Now the Philadelphia Transgender Wellness Conference. And that felt like a community onto itself. It only happened once a year, but it's this really beautiful thing of people coming from all over the country, mostly trans people. You meet those people in person once a year, and then you stay connected via email and social media in between time. And so you also don't even have to see someone on a weekly basis, but having these touch points where there's some in-person, some connection online to help you remember that you're not alone and people have got your back.
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Brian: Yeah, yeah.
Jase: You're bringing up something that I've been really thinking about a lot lately. I am someone who thinks about religion a lot for someone who very much identifies as atheist, don't believe in God, kind of like you were saying, but I think about it a lot. Partly because it's fascinating how it's influenced so much of our culture, so much of our life, and how various other religions have done the same thing. That is something I think about a lot, but specifically, the piece I've been kind of puzzling over lately is that community piece, where this is an argument that many people make for, even if they're like, yeah, I see some of the harm and the bad that Christianity can cause with this sort of declarative rule set that comes with it, even if you're in a more liberal branch of it, there's still potentially some challenge there. That it's like, well, but I want my kids to be raised in community. I want to have that community around for them. And on the one hand, I want to say, well, no, there's got to be a better way. But on the other hand, I'm like, but that is hard to find. There is something different about a religious community from the times in my life when I have gone to church that is not impossible but hard to find other places. And I think there's something about one, being in person, whereas a lot happens online now. So having people you meet in person, I do think, is something special. But also that there's something about a religious type of community where right from the start, there's kind of an openness to talking about some more touchy-feely things or being a little bit more vulnerable that like in the game developer meetups that I go to, that's not gonna happen, right? I'm not getting that kind of community, even if I also enjoy that group. There's something different there, and it's hard to find that in other communities. And I think when it comes to a polyamory community in a city, those really vary. And a lot of times there's also a certain dating aspect. Not that there's not that in church, because boy, howdy.
Brian: Yeah, yeah.
Brian: Yeah, you're right, that these spiritual communities lend themselves to deeper discussions of life and meaning and values and some of them better than others and some of them, there is a more openness to a wider range of perspective on things than others. But you're right that in a gaming meetup or even in a queer running club or an LGBT singing group, those don't necessarily lend themselves to these more deeper conversations. And so I think you can use those as a starting point to find your people. And then you find your crew within that, and then you almost have to take it out of just the choir practice or the gaming meet-up or the run, and invite them over to your home or go to a park. And over probably not the first time you hang out with them outside of whatever the official thing is. But over time, if you develop those relationships, you create space for these more deeper conversations. So there's-- I think this gets to the heart of making friends as an adult in general, that you can use these communities as starters. And then an important part of the work is to take them outside of those more formal contexts. And not to just like, let's all go to drag bingo together, which can be fun, but also can we be in a place where we can have actual serious conversations? Can we develop our friendship to a point that if I'm sick, you'll bring me soup, or you'll at least start a meal train for me? And so that does take a bit of work. And also there's an amount of time that it takes to move those relationships from the formal place to outside of the place. And I think also in spiritual communities as well, it's gonna behoove you to also start spending some time with your people outside of just Bible study or the service council or whatever.
Jase: That's true too. Yeah, I think there's still an element of finding the people you connect with. Just a couple of things that came up while you were talking about that. One is, even though it's not in person, I do find that the video groups that we do, like our monthly video processing groups, is actually, because a lot of people come regularly, but even people who just show up, there is still that sense of, we're all here to be vulnerable. And so there's a lot of openness right away to, if someone comes in new and they're sort of nervous to share or not quite sure, there's this very clear sense of, no, that's okay. That's what we're here for. And I think you can get that at a church too. I think that's kind of the vibe I'm getting at of right from the start, there's sort of a, no, you're welcome to share what's going on here in a way that you might not be in a normal social circumstance. And I'm trying to think of other places where I've felt that sense. And I feel like another one was in Seattle here. There's kind of a small, queer men's meetup that I went to that a friend invited me to. And it was very much that kind of, I was nervous coming in for the first time, and a lot of them always show up every month. And so I was the new person, but very quickly there was this sense of, no, let's ask questions, get each other to open up, and let's be vulnerable, and let's talk about these things. We actually ended up talking about Buddhism a lot. I'm just trying to think of other situations where that's happened at a larger scale. Because in both those cases, our video groups tend to be maybe 20 or fewer people each month, and then that queer meetup group was maybe 10 people or 12 people. They tend to be a little smaller. And while those are great, it's like it would be nice to have that larger community to then find your smaller communities within. Kind of like finding your Bible study group within your larger church.
Brian: Yeah, totally.
Jase: And that just feels weird to say like that, yeah.
Brian: Yeah. It feels like one of the limitations of secular culture, or at least where we are right now, where it's like there aren't nationwide church substitutes. You could go to a UU church, Unitarian Universalists, which is super, and many of them are very secular, very non-religious. You could get involved in the secular humanist society, or you could get involved in an activist organizing, but it's much easier and simpler to be like, I'm going to go find the Methodist. My parents are Methodist. I'm going to go find the Methodist church in my neighborhood and go to the Methodist church, right? Those nationwide, international-wide institution-type things just don't exist in the same way. And maybe that's a good thing, maybe that's a bad thing. Not my area of expertise.
Dedeker: I'm really sitting here just chewing so much on the concept of community and which communities I've connected to where I have felt there is that sense of there's something bigger here going on, right? That does the inspiring and the soothing and the challenging versus communities that I've been a part of where it doesn't quite feel like that. Not necessarily that means that it's bad or not useful, but a weird example that I've been chewing on recently. So two years ago now, I started studying tea ceremony. I started going to tea ceremony classes just as a total nerdy thing. And it took me a while before I knew, is this my thing? Is this going to be my hobby or not? But I want to say about a year into it, I started being like, there's something about this that feels sort of churchy and I don't know why. I think in a good way, right? It was like there's something about this that feels like church. And I realized yes, it has these elements of these people we meet every single week. And we also sometimes hang out outside of the specific institution and tea ceremony itself has its roots in Zen Buddhism, and so there is still this undercurrent of still searching for meaning underneath all of this, right? Really searching for just how do we become more present? How do we become more mindful? Where I'm kind of like, huh, that's interesting that all these people are connected by ultimately this kind of deeper purpose. And there's a piece of it that to me felt really churchy in a good way in the fact that it has created this really wonderful intergenerational community. There's a big part of that, right? That it's everyone from people in their 70s and 80s to teenagers, right? And we're all sort of tied together by this unity of something deeper. And that was really surprising to me because I didn't start going to tea ceremony classes looking for that. And yet I found it. And yet sometimes I will go to a queer meetup or to the poly cocktails, and it's fun and it can be inspiring, but it's not quite the same. And that's just my personal experience, not to say that that's how it would be for everybody. But this is such a fascinating discussion to kind of tease out, what are these elements in a community that feel like they do connect us to something bigger in a good way?
Brian: One of the chapters in Love Beyond Monogamy is about ritual, and I talk about different types of rituals on the community-wide level and on the individual level. And one section of that chapter is about paying attention to the things that you're already doing regularly that are more routines or habits. And I lay out a framework for transforming a routine or a habit into a ritual. And so whether on purpose or not on purpose, the tea ceremony group kind of already did that. There's a little bit of intentionality. There's this order. An example from my own life is that my friends and I were going, and this is not a community, this is a friend group, but we were going to Fire Island every year on this queer beach vacation. And at some point after a few years, I was like, oh, queer people have been coming here for decades, and queer people have come here and grieved and celebrated and gone through all the same life events that I'm going through. I was like, oh, this is kind of like a pilgrimage. There's no cars on Fire Island. It's all walking path boardwalks. And so sometimes it would just feel like a walking meditation. And every day at the marina in the evening, it's called tea, but it's a gay tea dance, right? And there's some ritual there around daily, whether it's daily mass or daily call to prayer or daily services of Judaism. I'm noticing these parallels and just naming for myself, oh, this thing that we're doing is more than just a vacation. And then starting to talk about that with my friends, and none of them are religious either, but just naming it as like, oh, this is not just a vacation, this is also our pilgrimage and oh, this is really special and we're gonna start calling ourselves family. That kind of sometimes all it takes is one person to start to bring just a little bit of intentionality and the structure and order to it. And I credit our friend Josh, we would always stay at the same bed and breakfast for many years. And if we ever wanted to turn on a different path to get there, he'd always be like, no, we always go down... Now I forget what it is. We always go down like pearl. And so we had to wait and take the path. And at the time, it just felt like this silly thing that Josh was doing. But in hindsight, there was something about taking that specific route. There was something about him saying, We always go down, and I see a meta-tradition. Yeah, it's a meta-tradition. And he passed away a few years ago from cancer. And when we passed that path on Fire Island, we'll be like, oh, we always go down, whatever it was. And so, it's just, I think that you can, it doesn't take this connection around depth and meeting and churchy in a good way is maybe a lot closer than we realize. And I think that's also a big part of what the book is about, is that it's all already kind of holy. Everything that we're doing is already brimming with this electricity connection, and it's just about paying attention, whether it's to your body, to your relationships, to your community, to your habits, and saying, how can we just go a little bit deeper, be a little bit more vulnerable, be a little bit more open, be a little bit more brave.
Dedeker: Okay, well, so in the same vein, in the book, you lay out this argument of, hey, a lot of these things were repeating. They already have a spiritual nature to them or ritualistic nature to them. You highlight the non monogamous communities, sacred texts, the books that everyone recommends reading.
Brian: I call you prophets.
Dedeker: I was gonna say you highlight certain authors and also certain podcasters having like profit-like roles in the community. And for God's sake, if you wanted to be back on the show, you could have just reached out to us directly and asked instead of write it into your book. But you also highlight radar as ritual and ritual as being connected to spiritual practice and stuff like that. And so, so first, I want to talk about all that more. I want to put a pin into the sacred texts, the prophets, the ritual. But before we go down that path, while I think it's interesting to draw these parallels, sometimes I get afraid. I'm like, isn't this risky? How do we refer to practices like this, non-traditional relationships and subcultures as having these spiritual elements without straying into the territory that were self-aggrandizing or we're acting like this is a religious institution or God forbid acting like it's a cult.
Brian: Yeah, I think part of it is that awareness, right? And I think for me, it's a descriptive labeling rather than a prescriptive labeling. Like I think if you all went around and you were like, We're the Prophets of Polyamory, and you must follow us wisdom.
Dedeker: That's according to Brian G. Murphy. Now we can quote you directly.
Jase: Yeah, although I will say Prophets of Polyamory is a very good band name. That is good.
Brian: That is good. And so I think really what I'm getting at is that there's something in the way that human society and psychology has evolved is that there's something about traditions and storytelling and leaders and paying attention to those feels helpful. And I had an ex who was like, it's really lovely that you're all into non-hierarchical relationships and anything's possible. And I could be anyone in your life. And also, you have a partner that you've been with for eight years, that you live with and that you share a lease with. And so pretending like that's not something that doesn't mean something, doesn't help any of us. And so if we actually want to be non-hierarchical, we have to address that you have a partner you live with and have been with for a long time. And so I think similarly, a danger comes if there are people who have tens of thousands of followers, hundreds of thousands of followers on Instagram or YouTube or listeners on the podcast, and they're like, oh, I'm just me. It's just like, no, you, whether you like it or not, not the three of you, but in general, people with audiences do have audiences. And so it behooves everyone to take that seriously. And so it's like, how do you, are you a good steward of that audience and that influence? Or are you using it for ill and acting like any number of the polyamorous influencers don't have influence, doesn't actually do anyone any good and potentially creates conditions where harm could happen because they're like, I'm just a person on the internet, having chats in the DMs with so and so or getting my opinion on my TikTok or whatever. And so I actually think that paying attention to the roles we all play is an important part of getting ahead of potential harm and abuse.
Dedeker: No, that makes a lot of sense. And to be transparent, over the years, I think that's complicated our relationship to just the community at large as well as our own community that's around the podcast where, for instance, in our Discord, in our private groups, people share themselves very vulnerably and very deeply about what they're struggling with and what's going on with them. And I think because we're aware that our words and opinions have weight that at this point to comment on somebody's personal situation, we're no longer just another supportive community member.
Jase: Right.
Dedeker: Often, we refrain or it changes the way that we interact with our own communities because of that. And I feel weird saying that because, again, I don't want to put us on a pedestal, like, oh, we're so freaking smart and important and have so much power. And at the same time, I think you're right. It's not quite the same as, yeah, I'm just another person on the internet.
Jase: Yeah.
Brian: And every now and then someone on Grindr will message me and say, oh, I love your YouTube videos or I love your work. And I'm like, oh cool, thanks. We should hook up. And I was like, oh, well, I'm not sure about that because I don't really know you and you know my work. I'm like, oh no, no, we can do whatever you want. And it's like, well, yeah, that's part of the problem. The problem is that I actually shouldn't do whatever I want. You're a real person. But if I was just like, oh yeah, it's cool that you know me. Let's just be friends, bound into hooking up. That's, I think, where... And it does feel weird because I'm just a person. I don't have a huge platform. I make YouTube videos sometimes from my living room. I have a day job. And so it's easy to feel like I'm not anyone. And also, it's a yes and of I can still be a regular person in lots of places and also there are some contexts where paying attention to, oh, yeah, this person is really looking up to me to say, is it okay to masturbate or not? And I have to be careful with how I answer that question.
Jase: I want to circle back to the whole radar as ritual thing as a spiritual practice. And I'm also now thinking about the Triforce of Communication kind of falls a little bit into those code words that you sort of learn in religion that are shortcuts to communicating larger concepts. And I've never thought about this as ritual or things like that before. And it's simultaneously freaking me out a little bit and also I'm fascinated by it. Could you maybe just tell us a little bit more about ritual and how does that fit in with ritual? Because I think for a lot of us, when we think of ritual, it's almost more like a thing that we observe or are kind of part of peripherally. Like if you think of going to church and the rituals involved in that, you're involved, but you're not the one doing it versus a radar, which is a very personal thing that you and another partner or two or something are doing together.
Emily: Yeah.
Brian: I think all the best rituals are ones that you are actively participating in as opposed to just watching. And I think a lot of this happens in Judaism too, that it becomes like, we do the important stuff up here and you just sit and watch, whether it's a church service or sometimes even a wedding, right? So I think when you can make rituals collaborative and so people are actually participating, it makes them more powerful. But so radar as a ritual, this also gets back to connecting to that which is bigger than yourself, right? So there's something about when you decide to do a radar, you're saying I am the type of person who takes my relationship seriously. Inherent in doing a radar is some amount of introspection just by yourself because you have to then share your perspective on the fight that you had or what you want out of your finances or where you're hoping to travel. So there's a little bit of it connects you to yourself as the first step of the process. And then you collaborate with your partner on having the conversation. So it connects you to others in that moment. And then it also connects you in some way to all of the other people who are doing radars every month all around the world, because you're not the only person who does this. You're part of something bigger. There's something about, someone else came up with this idea, they established this format for me. So there's a little bit of a plug and playness to it. And I can think of, I care about relationships and I'm doing relationships intentionally and there's lots of other people. I'm not the only weirdo who is interested in non-monogamy or who takes my relationship seriously. This is important and I'm part of this wider community. And there's also a sense of it connects you to that which is bigger than yourself, both in terms of the nebulous universe of multiamory listeners who have adopted the radar also, as well as your values of intentionality, collaboration, planning, commitment, a mix of autonomy and interdependence, right? Whether you sort of think I'm doing a ritual because of these values, they end up being these expressions of your values. And I think that you were really onto something when you named it a radar. I remember back when it was relationship stuff, right? Which I think is a cool framework, but also there's something about being like, No, this is its own thing. And it's not just a relationship check in. It's important to have relationship check ins, right? But when you say, I'm doing a radar, it means something more and different than I try to have a relationship check in with my partner regularly. And so there's something about saying we take this seriously so much so that we've named it. You all recommend picking the next one at the start of the first one that you're currently having. So it's always on your calendar. There's a monthly cadence to it. And so, spiritual ritual in that paying attention to yourself and other people and something bigger than yourself, not like a substitute for Christianity.
Dedeker: Yeah.
Brian: I think one of the theses of my work in general and Love Beyond Monogamy in particular is that it's all already holy and that the distinction between a radar and a baseball game and a church service is maybe more arbitrary than we are. Like actually, there's something similar happening in all of those. And we can pay attention to those similarities and then also pay attention to, well, how do I want to be different than, what are the things that don't work about the religion that I grew up in? And how do I want my relationship with myself and others and that which is bigger than myself to be different than the bullshitty version that I inherited and was taught? So I think that's an element of it also of we don't have to just accept things as they are. We get to craft them and put our own spin on them.
Emily: I'm very excited to talk about this conversation that we're having with my current partner who I've had for about a year because he's the first person that I've ever dated who is religious and believes in God and also didn't have a bad experience growing up with religion, which is something that I think Jason Deticker, I've gleaned that that is more your experience, and it certainly was the experience of my last partner, very much so that he had a big falling out with God. Didn't even want a Bible in the house. And then when I started talking about it much more often, that became a little bit of a source of discomfort in our relationship. But at one point I was not at all comfortable with talking about the Bible or God or spirituality in any way. And I so much more am now, I think, because of the other podcast that we do, Drunk Bible Study. But just this idea also of being around people where that's not the experience that they had, that they grew up in, religion actually was a positive force in their life. And how that gets intertwined into the rest of their life as well. And just thinking about the practices that you're talking about, the rituals, he is a very, very avid runner. He runs every single day, pretty much. And I think of that as probably a spiritual practice that he has as well. So, just these are fascinating conversations about how we can put all of these things into practice. And it doesn't just have to look like we go to church every week or we pray every day or whatever that is. That's really beautiful.
Brian: One of the reasons why I do the work that I do and engage with more quote unquote traditional institutional religions is because Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism have big impacts on the world. In particular Christianity, right? Because this de facto religion of the American empire. And so we are all affected by it. And many of us have had negative experiences with it. And some people still today have positive experiences with it. Helpful, I think, to help folks navigate that. But also just philosophically, it doesn't really matter to me if you're talking about the Bible or Star Trek, I think they can both be useful. It's like, are you wrestling with these, oh, I learned this lesson, or oh, this is a vision of the way that the world could be in Star Trek. And there's also conventions and online communities around that and meetups and cosplaying, and there's whole communities around that. So, whatever the sacred text or texts are, for me it's less about you should read the Bible and talk about the Bible and more about there's some value in wrestling with being a part of something bigger and clarifying what you believe and what your values are and having tools and communities to support you and encourage you and inspire you and challenge you also.
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Dedeker: So you alluded earlier that you converted to Judaism as an adult. And you also, in the book, you have this super interesting section where you highlight how when we land in a new faith or a new spiritual practice, or for some people in a new relationship practice, that we can experience sensations of NRE, of new relationship energy, which can also transform into more established relationship energy over time and bringing with it all the pros and cons that we experience with that in our personal relationships as well. I guess I kind of wanted to hear about your Judaism NRE experience and hear more about that.
Brian: I sort of mentioned earlier that it was a long time brewing. I grew up in a very Jewish neighborhood. My whole life, my best friends have all been mostly been Jewish. And so it was a second home for me. And for various reasons at some point I was like, maybe it should not be a second home, but a first home. It almost kind of felt like not coming out, but like, I think this might be the path for me, and I had been ignoring it for a while. And maybe now I'm going to pay a bit more attention and figure it out. And so as I began to go down that path of more seriously considering conversion, as opposed to just waving it off whenever some friends would ask me about it, I got more and more excited about it. I was like, oh yeah, this makes sense. I can see this. I really see myself fitting in this. And this element of theology, this element of the culture, this element of the food, whatever it might be, right? And so there was a period where I was both in the immediate time preceding my official conversion and then the period time immediately after it where I was talking to people about it, taking online courses about it, reading books about it, listening to podcasts about it, just like, I couldn't get enough of it. And it reminded me of, in those early days of NRE in a new relationship where you're just like, I can stay up until 4:00 AM just talking about all our feelings and we have sex, and then we stop and we talk some more and we have sex again. And he cooked me dinner and it was so delicious and everything is so exciting and precious, right? And you could just have endless excitement for it. And at some point, it becomes unsustainable and you're like, I actually do have to go to bed before 4:00 AM, right? And I think for folks who are maybe not used to NRE in relationships, that transition from NRE to established relationship energy can feel disorienting or like, oh, maybe I don't, maybe this relationship isn't right for me or what's happening? Is there something wrong with me or with us? And when you know about it, you're like, oh, that's A, I'm in NRE. I think you all say, don't make any legally buying decisions in the first year of your relationship. Because you're just awash in chemicals, right? And to be aware of, oh, I might have to be extra careful of my other partners and my other friendships or my work because I'm singularly focused on this. So I had a sense of that as well of, as I was beginning to feel more comfortable in my post-conversion Jewish identity, I found, oh, okay, I don't actually have to listen to two podcast episodes every day and constantly be reading books and turning through them. I can read other books again, listen to other podcasts. And I had a moment of, oh, did I make a mistake? Should I not have converted? Am I not as committed to this as I thought that I was? Was this just one of my ADHD hyperfixations and I've now moved on? And to be like, to have this polyamory framework of, oh no, I'm just shifting into established relationship energy with Judaism. And I actually just feel content in it and I have a secure relationship with my Jewish identity as opposed to an anxious one or a crying one or those sort of laments. Like, are they gonna ever, am I gonna see them again until I have to do everything all at once on this occasion? And I think to continue that metaphor to your point about polyamory in general, in my practice with coaching clients, sometimes when they discover polyamory as a possibility for themselves, they're listening to all the podcasts, reading all the books, talking about it with all of their friends, talking about it constantly with their partner who might be overwhelmed. Evangelizing. Yeah. So there's an element of, okay, let's go slow. It will still be there next week or next month. You don't have to figure it all out today. And so I think that framework of NRE and ERE is helpful in a lot of different aspects, not only our romantic relationships.
Dedeker: Well, I so appreciated that section, particularly in regards to the fact that we'll go through this transition with any kind of spiritual practice. It brought back a memory for me of when I was growing up in the church, I was probably like a tween at this point. And there was some speaker who had converted to Christianity later in life, as an adult, right? And obviously they didn't use the term NRE, but the term at that time, in the 90s was they call it like the Baby Christian feelings, right? Of yeah, when you're newly, newly converted Christian and he shared that, he was so energized and so excited and that someone who had been a Christian for much longer told him, oh, that feeling's gonna fade, right? And then in his talk, he very defiantly was like, and that feeling has never faded. I still feel that way. And even as a tween on the inside, I was kind of like, I think that might be bullshit. And reflecting on it, I was kind of like, and I think that's also like a not very helpful narrative to have that mimics the unhelpful narrative we have that if you're in a good relationship, you're always gonna be feeling the NRE, or you're always gonna be able to tap into it when that's just not true. And I think applying that also when we think about one spiritual practice, or even the way that some people come to non-monogamy and can feel very seen and excited and so energized, and then when that starts to fade or that starts to feel more normal can bring up all these feelings of doubt or things like that. I think the point I'm making is that I think it makes sense to just be aware of that and to count that as well within the realm of normal.
Brian: NRE gets hyped up a lot in our community as this big exciting thing. And so on the flip side, there are people who maybe they've been in a long-term relationship previously, and so they have felt and they're like, they want to skip to that point where they're like, I don't want to be in the, is he gonna call me back? Does she like me? I want to get to the, we're an old married couple in bed reading books together. Or they've never been in a long-term relationship, but they've seen in the movies and TV shows this version of love and commitment. And so they're like, well, if I have these doubts, maybe there's something wrong with me or, I don't want to put in XYZ work. So that is something to be on the lookout in your romantic relationships. And also, I think in your spiritual explorations, you might have been hurt by the church, but there also possibly was some positive experiences along the way. And so if you're trying something new, you're comparing your first time doing a Zen Buddhist meditation to your 75th time going to the worship service with the lights, and you're like, this doesn't feel like that I used to feel so confident and comfortable. And it's like, yeah, you've never gone to a Zen Buddhist retreat before. This is your first time at a synagogue, or you grew up going to a non-denominational megachurch, and now you're at an Episcopalian church, and it's a very high-triggy liturgical. Yeah, it feels weird and different and unfamiliar. That doesn't necessarily mean it's bad or not for you. It might just mean you haven't found your groove or developed those more positive associations with it. And so your 12th time meditating might feel different than your first time meditating. And so it's not that you should stick with meditation if meditation is not your thing, but there is something about you do need to sometimes give things a bit of a try. You can't expect to get ERE on your first date and you also can't expect to get the spiritual version of ERE on your first time doing yoga.
Jase: Hmm.
Emily: Well, similarly, and I'm drawing some parallels here to some of what we've read in the Bible on our other podcasts, but there is gonna be crises of faith in relationships in addition to, I think probably within your spiritual practices as well, that you're sometimes going to question, what is it that I believe? Is this something that I'm really fundamentally for or against? And in your relationships as well, you're going to sometimes feel like, is this really what I want to be doing right now or not? Do I still have the capacity to move past this challenge that I'm in currently with my partner or not? So it's interesting. I think, just all of the different parallels that you're drawing are really fascinating. And I agree that there's something here for everyone that regardless of what kind of relationship configuration you're in or if you're religious or spiritual or not, you can still find understanding, I think, through these practices.
Brian: Both with religion and with relationships, I think the healthiest approach is not to just be, oh, I just have to believe harder or try harder or love more. Question it. Yeah, absolutely question and doubt. And there can be room for that. And the presence of doubt or uncertainty doesn't mean the relationship is wrong or the community is toxic or the practice isn't for you. It might, and so we don't want to just knuckle down and I have to stay in this relationship because they're my one and only.
Jase: I do think that that's a piece of religion that for a lot of people who are wary of it, there is that sense of, I'm wary of this system that's decided on some kind of absolute rules that are, this is not just what you should or shouldn't do, but what is right and wrong on a deeper spiritual kind of sense. And I think that we see this with other types of communities as well, whether that's within different non-monogamy communities or different queer spaces or things that they can fall into that same trap of being focused more on dogma than they are on the community aspect or the supportive aspect. I do think that's an interesting thing to think about. And an interesting thing that I've found in talking to lots of different spiritual people in Buddhism and Christianity and Judaism just throughout my life, that some of them are much more, there's rules and we just need to understand them and follow them and we're good. And then others who are like, that's not the point. The point is about asking the questions and this doesn't have all the answers for you. It just gives you a way to go about seeking those answers. But that image, that second one, is not the one most of us associate with religion, and especially not with Christianity, right? That's not the image we have, even if it might exist.
Brian: Yeah, and I think, so to honor all of that. And then if we say, often when people say, religion is XYZ, what they actually mean is Christianity is because, Right.
Dedeker: Yeah.
Brian: And using the word 'religion' is actually a way of collapsing all of those. But does the Cherokee religion actually exist, think or believe or act like that. And so it actually unwittingly comes from a very Christian supremacist place, even if they don't need to do that. And even within, if we are talking about just Christianity, and just saying, well, Christianity is all about absolutes and rules that you have to follow and dogmatic and there's no place for doubt. And it believes XYZ about Jesus and God. You're sort of saying, actually, the fundamentalists have it right. And it just can, you might say, I disagree with that version of that, or I'm working against that, but you capitulate and crush all of Christianity, one of the world's largest religions, to the fundamentalist views on it and ignore.
Jase: And letting them win.
Brian: It's like, well, actually that's not the way Christians have historically over the past two millennia have understood the Bible, understood Jesus. For instance, universal salvation was the dominant view of the church for most of Christian history. And so to say, Christians believe that you have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven and some people are going to hell, that just says, I think that Jerry Falwell and Charlie Kirk are right. And I'm not really willing to co-sign on them being the, they're the loudest or the most powerful, but I think we should be careful about undermining the people, the lived experiences of so many people. And especially when you talk about the ways in which non-white communities and Christianity, it's very complicated. And also for many, the black church is very powerful, a source of liberation and inspiration for many black Americans. And to say, all of that, there's no value in that whatsoever. Feels like a, obviously, I'm not Christian, but it feels like, right, it's maybe a step too far in an unhelpful and an ahistorical position to take.
Dedeker: So if somebody's listening to this and they're resonating with this conversation and they're wanting to explore their spirituality, their spirituality curious, where do you suggest that they begin?
Brian: Oh, well, you might read Love Beyond Monogamy.
Dedeker: Yeah.
Brian: Good start. I think it really depends. I think if you come from a particular religious tradition that you either feel like you have some unresolved harm from, or that you are actively interested in, but you don't know where to start reading about that religion or about that tradition's sacred text rather than trying to just dive head first into the Bible or the Quran. It might be helpful to see, what are other people saying about this? Can you read some queer thinkers on it? Can you read some womanist thinkers on it? Christianity in particular. What does liberation theology say? What does queer theology have to say about it? What does feminist theology have to say about it? To get what are the different ways in which people have engaged with this? If you're just sort of spiritually curious in general, read books about lots of different traditions. Go check out the Zen Buddhist Center in your neighborhood. Ask the rabbi at your local synagogue, Hey, can I pop in and see what's going on? Find some podcasts to listen to, dip your toe in.
Dedeker: To the water.
Brian: I think that's a really easy place to start is just in the learning about rather than feeling like I have to do, quote unquote, do the thing, whether it's pray or read the Bible or go to a service. It's okay to just sort of see, to philosophically align with that. And then if you're sort of like, oh, this seems interesting, you might start to dip your toe into practices by yourself, with a community, you might take a class at a church to learn more about it, take a class at a synagogue to learn more about it, find a class online. Be a part of an online community as another step in the process. And then of course, if you're a more hands-on type person, life coaching, spiritual direction, an online community for seekers, there are lots of places like that that exist. You can talk to me. I'd be happy to talk to you about if you want a more hands-on approach. But I think I would say learning about then dipping your toe in and finding the home that fits for you.
Dedeker: I'll reiterate that I do think that your book is a good place to start because something that I see among people within the non-monogamy community or queer communities who are searching for some sense of spirituality that often I think people feel like their socially validated options are quite limited. What I mean by this is I feel like if you're queer, it feels like you're allowed to be a witch. And if you're very, very straight, you're allowed to practice tantric sex. And that's your options for non monogamy affirmative, spiritual practices. And those are both great. But I think because your viewpoint comes from this place of, no, you inherently already have a spiritual practice essentially in the way that you're showing up, that means that there's many more options available to you.
Brian: It's not just to, I think we said it a bunch, but to reiterate, this is not a, this is the polyamorous case for Christianity or Judaism, right? It's like you are already spiritual and there's space for you in any tradition that you want to be part of, whether that's a witchy community or whether that's a shul or whether that's just saying my chosen family is my spiritual community that's all brimming with the divine already.
Jase: Well, this has been fascinating and it sounds like something that all of us think about a lot. So it's interesting to get this out in the open and discuss some of these different needs or concerns or worries or things that we're excited about. So Brian, thank you so much for joining us today. At the end here, can you tell our listeners where can they find more of you and more of your work? And of course, your book that just came out.
Brian: Yeah, it's BGM on all the places, and my website is briangmurphy.com. My initials. The book, Love Beyond Monogamy, is wherever books are sold. On my website, I link to all of the major ones and a few indie spots that I really love. So, Love Beyond Monogamy, everywhere you can find it.
Jase: Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Brian: Thanks for having me.
Jase: And for our question of the week, for those of you at home on our Instagram @multiamory_podcast is what piece of media is sacred to you? What would be your holy text? If it's Xena: Warrior Princess, if it's the movie Hackers, if it's, I don't know, that's just been on my mind. I've been thinking about that. If it's the Highlander movies, if it's Lord of the Rings, whatever it is. I'd love to hear from you. The best place to share your thoughts with other listeners about this episode is in our discussion channel in our Discord server, or you can post in our private Facebook group. You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to multiamory.com/join. In addition, you can share with us publicly on Instagram at @multiamory_podcast.
Jase: Multiamory is created and produced by Emily Matlack, Dedeker Winston, and me, Jase Lindgren. Our production assistants are Rachel Schenewerk and Carson Collins. Our theme song is Forms I Know I Did by Josh and Anand from the Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is available on this episode’s page on Multiamory.com.