551 - My Partner Dates People Just Like Me: Listener Q&A

Listener Q&A

Today we’re tackling the following question from one of our Supercast subscribers:

My bf (who is cis) and I (a trans man) have been together for almost two years. We had some seriously rocky beginnings but have been more stably in love and lust as partners for about a year now. We are nonmonog but currently each other's only romances. We are both pan but he tends to go for other trans men and has a lot of experience hooking up with ~guys like me. I'm super into other trans guys too but they just don't seem to be into me. I default into monogamish habits with him. I fear him leaving me sexually for a guy who looks/has anatomy like me but younger. I am jealous of him for the hookups he has with guys I'm into/jealous of those guys for getting his attention. I resent his comparative ease in getting laid as a cis guy, fewer hangups, more ease with prioritizing pleasure). I want to be a freer and more secure partner to myself and to him. Issues of inadequacy around my looks and gender run deep and he's one of the few ppl I've felt so seen by and it makes me feel territorial (which sucks!) Can I learn to love myself better to be more genuinely and wholeheartedly nonmonogamous? I value freedom and delight for both of us but man this shit is hard. Any advice appreciated <3 Love your show.

Seeing Double in da Big Apple

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Transcript

If you find any transcription errors, please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.

Emily: I think many of us get wrapped up in 'we are a unit', or I have to be thinking about them all the time, and what is it that they want to do, or what is it that we want to do together. But if you can find things to do, whether that be stuff in your own community that's maybe separate from them, or with your own friends that don't necessarily know them as well, or whatever it is, that you find time to be joyful in the things that you love that are just for you. I think that that is a great reminder for yourself that you were a person before them and will still be a great person after them if that is what happens and that you can be okay just being by yourself or just being with your group of friends or your community or doing the things that you love to do.

Jase: Welcome to the Multiamory podcast. I'm Jase.

Emily: I'm Emily.

Dedeker: And I'm Dedeker.

Emily: We believe in looking to the future of relationships, not maintaining the status quo of the past.

Dedeker: Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous, swinging, casually dating, or if you just do relationships differently, we see you and we're here for you.

Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we're answering a listener question about jealousy and the fear of losing a relationship if your partner dates people who seem too similar to you. Too similar. And we'll get into what that means later in this episode. But I think we've all talked about this in the past, and we're excited to get into this topic a little more deeply today. If you're interested in learning about our fundamental communication tools that we reference on this show, you can check out our book, Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships. It covers our most-used communication tools for all types of relationships. You can find links to buy it at multiamory.com/book or wherever fine books are sold. Alternatively, the first 9 episodes of this podcast also cover some of our most widely used and shared communication tools.

Dedeker: So we got to hit you with some disclaimers first before we dive into the question. We have spent a lot of time studying healthy relationship communication, but we are not infallible. We are not mind readers, at least not yet. Bear in mind that our advice is based solely on the limited information that we have in the question. So please take everything we say with a grain of salt. Everybody's situation is unique. If you feel like some of this advice might apply to you, we encourage you to use your own judgment, seek professional help if needed, because ultimately, you're the only true expert on your life and feelings, and your decisions are your own. And also bear in mind that this question has been edited for time and for clarity.

Emily: Alrighty, here we go. I'm working to combat jealousy and fear around my partner's attraction to guys like me. My boyfriend, who is cis, and I, a trans man, have been together for almost two years. We had some seriously rocky beginnings, but have been more stably in love and lust as partners for about one year now. We are nonmonogamous, but currently each other's only romances. We are both pan, but he tends to go for other trans men and has a lot of experience hooking up with guys like me. I'm super into trans guys, too, but they just don't seem to be into me. I default into monogamish habits with him. I fear him leaving me sexually for a guy who looks/has anatomy like me, but younger. I am jealous of him for the hookups that he has with guys I'm into/jealous of those guys for getting his attention. I resent his comparative ease in getting laid as a cis guy. Fewer hangups, more ease with prioritizing pleasure. I want to be a freer and more secure partner to myself and to him. Issues of inadequacy around my looks and gender run deep, and he's one of the few people I've felt so seen by, and it makes me feel territorial, which sucks. Can I learn to love myself better to be more genuinely and wholeheartedly nonmonogamous? I value freedom and delight for both of us, but man, this shit is hard. Any advice appreciated. Love your show. Seeing double in da Big Apple. Oh, hello from New York.

Dedeker: Yeah. Yeah, this shit is hard, huh?

Emily: Oh, yeah.

Dedeker: Why do we do this?

Emily: I don't know. But yeah.

Jase: The first thing that jumped to my mind is that that fear of being replaced by someone who's interchangeable with you, but younger and hotter, is not exclusive to nonmonogamy. That's something that a lot of people can identify with. I think especially women are socialized to identify with that. But that also shows up a lot in the gay community for the people that are more on the twink side of things, I'll say, or the boy side of things, where there is this sense of what makes me hot is my youngness and that's the role I play here. And so I could just be replaced by someone younger. I think that fear definitely gets into us deep in a lot of different areas, right? And so I can definitely understand why those feelings would be coming up, and I think you're not alone in having those feelings.

Dedeker: Would it be okay? I want to highlight, I want to take an inventory of the six different interlocking, overlapping things happening here. And maybe we could take each of those one by one just to kind of keep our discussion a little bit more streamlined instead of going all over the place. So the first thing is the similarity is kind of fear that if my partner's dating people who are really similar to me, does that mean that perhaps I'm interchangeable? And does that mean if someone really similarly to me comes along, but who's maybe a little bit better than me, that means that I'm going to be abandoned. So that's issue one. And then issue two, I see like what you were referencing, Jase, this fear of aging, right? Or this fear that my partner's going to find someone who's younger than me. So there's issue number two. Issue number three, the fact that my partner is pursuing and then sometimes having success with people that I'm also attracted to. And I feel frustrated that I'm not having the success that my partner's having. So that's issue number three. Issue number four is noticing the relative, maybe I'll call it the privilege differential between the partner who's a cis man and the perceived ease that the cis man has in dating versus the trans man's struggle. And then issue number five, what I see as maybe the fact that this relationship sounds like it's still relatively new. I know if this is the first time you're listening to our show, you might be like a year, a year and a half, that's not that new. And I think if you listen to our show a lot, you'll know that we're like, no, that's still pretty new, right? You're probably still in the NRE window. So would it be okay with the two of you if we kind of go through those one by one?

Jase: Yeah, you mentioned there were six, and you only said five.

Dedeker: I know.

Emily: There was the territorial thing as well, that I don't know.

Dedeker: Maybe like the monogamish monogamists.

Emily: Yeah, he also said the issues of inadequacy around my looks and gender run deep. And then can I learn to love myself better to be more genuinely and wholeheartedly nonmonogamous? So I think that also, maybe is a sixth thing.

Dedeker: Yeah.

Emily: Self-worth.

Dedeker: Let's add that to the list.

Emily: And then feelings of inadequacy surrounding, I guess, all of this potentially.

Dedeker: Right.

Emily: Okay. So there's a big old list of things.

Dedeker: And these are presented not necessarily in order of priority or which ones are more difficult than the others. This is just the order that they occurred to me. So, yeah, great. Let's talk about the similarity piece.

Emily: Good. Because that was what I was interested in first.

Dedeker: Yeah, go ahead.

Emily: Well, I was just going to bring up specifically Dedeker that I remember way back in the day when I was dating our shared partner, Brad, and we were both dating Jase, that you talked a little bit about the similarity between me and you and the fact that like, oh, she's also a gamer, kind of... Did we have the...

Dedeker: Same bangs back then?

Emily: Yes, I think we looked really similar in that way. Like the same hair. It was like, okay. And it's funny because I hear people talking about, oh, well, but this person is so different than I am. It's amazing to me that you can be attracted to somebody who's so different from me and then also me kind of thing. But in this case, the feelings of inadequacy come from dating people that are really similar to you. And I do get that it sets up the potential for competition even that much more, I think. Because then you're stacking all of the things that you do well against the things that might be similar that that other person does well, as opposed to it being like two totally different things. So just something, an interesting observation that I feel like so often the narrative is like, oh, but that person's so different than me. How can you love them too? And this time it's the similarity thing going on.

Dedeker: Yeah, for sure. Now, in my own personal experience, I've definitely had the experience of, you know, my partner's dating someone who's very different than me, and I'll get a little brain worm who whispers in my ear that will try to tell me like, oh, they're so different from you. That must be what your partner really wants.

Emily: Yeah, for sure. Exactly.

Dedeker: All these things that you can't offer, that must be what your partner really wants. And so that's the negative version of it. But then I've also mostly experienced the positive version of that of like, that's fine. Someone who's different for me, right? Like that's great. But yes, it's so funny that this topic is coming up now because I'm in the middle of working on a book project actually, and I was doing some some sort of brainstorming, kind of a brain dump writing. And I was sitting there and I was like, what actually makes me jealous these days? Or what actually makes me feel insecure? I love that. Yeah. And not based on relationship circumstance, not based on the secure level of secure attachment in the relationship, but literally based on like who could a partner of mine date that would maybe instantly hook me, right, with some kind of sense of insecurity.

Emily: Did you figure that out? The answer to that question?

Dedeker: Well, I wrote a whole bunch, but one of them I wrote down was like, the idea of my a loved one being drawn to someone who, and I phrased it as someone who has my same quote unquote brand of specialness.

Emily: Oh, wow. So as in, that's really interesting.

Dedeker: You know, and so it's like, what are the things that I think are my brand of specialness, right? Running a podcast, you know, so like another person who's maybe writing books or like written books, maybe someone else who like speaks the same languages that I speak, or maybe someone else who I don't know, does the same hobbies that I do. It all leads down to, if this person mimics my brand of specialness, and if they're even just slightly better at that brand of specialness than me, then I feel like I'm gonna die.

Emily: Can you imagine finding another person who, like, runs a podcast, speaks Japanese, and also, yeah, maybe I'd just be so.

Dedeker: I'd be so surprised at that point that I wouldn't feel jealous.

Emily: You'd be like, wow.

Jase: Honestly, though, I think any one of those would be challenging, right?

Dedeker: Yeah, it doesn't have to be the whole combination of all of them.

Jase: And in this case, I would say for me, if either of you, even though people would say, like, oh, you can't be jealous of Emily.

Emily: 'Cause you're not in a romantic relationship.

Jase: It doesn't even apply that way, right? There's still this threat of, if either of you started dating someone who was also a podcaster, but I perceived as more successful than me, that would be hard.

Dedeker: Right?

Jase: I'm not saying it'd be like a deal breaker couldn't do it, but that would be hard.

Emily: You'd be like, Emily, break up with them immediately.

Dedeker: I'm gonna do a platonic veto on you.

Emily: Yeah, exactly right.

Dedeker: Right. Maybe a professional veto.

Jase: There you go.

Emily: Right.

Jase: And the reason why I say that is more to point out that, yeah, depending on what you kind of see as your unique specialness, like Dedeker was just talking about, your unique brand of special, that even if they're honing in on just a little bit of that, like in the question askers case, they're just focusing on the fact that these are trans guys for the most part, and that that's a special brand of uniqueness that they're kind of honing in on that, even if they might have totally different other interests, but it is easy to focus on the one that is the same. Kind of like you were talking about, like, both of you liking games and that that was a hard thing early on, or for me, if they were a podcaster or something, that would be hard. Or if I started dating someone new who spoke Japanese more fluently than Dedeker.

Emily: I could see her having a hard time with that.

Jase: Whoa, that's possible.

Dedeker: I'm sure it's very possible, but yeah, that'd be hard.

Jase: Even if rationally, you're like, oh, but they're a different person than me. It's still, yes, that was part of my special.

Dedeker: Yeah. So I wrote that down, and I was like, I was like, oh, that's so interesting. I can identify that. I feel like for myself personally, as I'm working on this writing project, I still feel like I need to delve into the next level of like why that is or where that comes from. I guess my knee jerk, just off the cuff guess would be, yeah, it cuts to this sense of if I feel like I'm just another one on the pile, right? Or if I'm no longer special, if I can kind of blend into the background, maybe that makes me more forgettable, replaceable, easily abandonable, right? As though the whole reason that Jase is with me is because I write books and have studied Japanese for an embarrassing amount of time. Maybe that is the only reason you're with me. Maybe I should inquire.

Jase: But yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point.

Emily: This reminds me of one of the times that occurred that you said that, you know, even though nonmonogamy is all about abundance in many ways and about allowing love into your life from so many different facets of people and all of those things that we still do so often want to be the best at something, or regardless of understanding that it's not a competition, that it shouldn't be a competition between people, but we still want to feel the best at something in our partner's eyes and to them in some way. And so, yeah, I mean, it's tough because I would hope that we could focus and that this question asker can focus on all of the things that are not that specific thing that they're looking at and being insecure about and understanding that those wonderful qualities that make up who they are are something that nobody else has and that that can't be easily replaced. But I do understand that that's easier said than done. And I know that that's getting a little bit more into like self-worth stuff. But from a similarity standpoint, I would try to view and understand and remember and lift yourself up regarding all of those wonderful things that you and only you are good at and can do.

Dedeker: I think if it were me, and we should put the big disclaimer on all of this that none of us are trans, like we all identify as cis, right? So there's a particular portion of this discussion that we can't speak to personally. But I do think if it were me and I was noticing that my partner was not just dating one other person who seemed similar to me, but a lot of people who seemed similar to me, there's like maybe the less threatening end of the spectrum where I might want to tease them about having a type. I know that there's a meme that I've seen going around on the polyamory subreddit where the dialogue is like, you know, me insisting that I don't have a type. I date all kinds of different people. And then it says my type colon, and then it's a picture of kind of like all of the knockoff seven ups lined up next to each other.

Emily: Right?

Dedeker: How like they're all distinct and yet slightly different. So it's like there's one end of the spectrum where it's like, yeah, it was kind of silly. Like maybe sometimes people just have a type, right? That they tend to be naturally unintentionally drawn to. So there's one end of it. There's, I think, the more negative or upsetting end of the spectrum where I would start to wonder, am I part of a fetish? Right? And I don't even know how you start to have those conversations with a partner. I would recommend that this is something that once it feels like there's enough kind of trust and security and goodwill to have a conversation that's led by curiosity, not by accusation. Right. That's led by curiosity about actually trying to understand what motivates your partner, your partner's thought process, what your partner's narrative is to himself about the choices he makes in partners, again, from a place of curiosity and not from like trying to pin them down on something that that can also help, or at least I think it would help me to dissuade or to assuage some of my doubts and fears or questions that I have around like why my partner's choosing partners this way.

Emily: My partner and I have been looking at field together. We each have our own separate field accounts, but we are matched to each other on it, which is one of the things that you can do on Field, and I guess on a variety of other apps now, maybe just OkCupid, but.

Dedeker: Also some of them.

Emily: I don't know. Yeah, some of them. But it is interesting going through with him and seeing the people that he's attracted to and then seeing the people that I'm attracted to and kind of having a discussion about it as we're going through Field. And I think that that's maybe a fun, non-accusatory way of being like, huh, okay, you seem to like or find this type of person attractive. What's underneath that? Can we unpack that a little bit more? You truly have in front of you some representation of what that is, and then it can start like a fun discussion about it to a degree.

Dedeker: Yeah.

Jase: I do think this question of is it a fetish is worth exploring a little bit. Also just like how you feel about it yourself, right? Because it's one of those things that we can use analogies to think about it. But it does really vary based on the situation and how they behave about it, how it feels to you. Like maybe they're not doing anything wrong, but this could just feel yucky to you. Like that's possible too. Because I'm thinking about trying to come up with analogies for what this could be. And if there were some particular unique physical trait that you had and you found that your partner was just dating other people with that particular unique trait. Whether it's like, oh, I have a particularly large butt, or I have this type of nose, or maybe even this colored eyes. At a certain point, it's like, okay, this is actually a little weird that you're just dating people who have this one, relatively rare quality. And I think you could get to that point where it's like, okay, that seems a little bit strange. Like maybe another analogy would be dating someone who's always your same race. We've definitely had people write in with questions and talk about that before. That can be a really complicated issue of is it just attraction or is there something else there that's causing them to maybe fetishize that particular race or something. And I think in this case, being trans, that's an easy thing to look at too and be like, yeah, this is a relatively rare thing in the population. And why do they keep going for this particular thing? Or is it just that I'm focused on those because they're the ones that feel the worst because they look like me? You know, it's just there's a lot to unpack there.

Dedeker: But I want to create a sense of space and possibility there, right? Like, I don't want to plant the seeds that your partner's definitely doing something dastardly, right?

Emily: Sure.

Dedeker: Like, I think it's more important to lead with curiosity in this situation.

Jase: On the other hand, I've also heard from people that it can be really hard dating someone where your too unique amongst the people that they date. I've found that for men who date men, there's kind of this trope of, oh, you're dating the guy who's dating a guy for the first time. And this kind of this, ugh. Like, they're now projecting all of their shit and all of their baggage on me because I'm this weird, unique thing that's making them explore this new part of their life. And maybe that's exciting and cool, but it's also challenging. So just to throw that out there as another way to think about this situation of your partner being attracted to trans men like you are, that there is a certain amount of, at least you're not having to be the only one who's talking to them about that and being that experience for them.

Dedeker: Is it okay if we talk about the fear of aging and very few.

Emily: Aging people, why not?

Dedeker: Emily, thank you that you also clarified in parentheses not being young when you wrote it down. Yeah.

Emily: Was that me or was that you, Jase?

Jase: I wrote that down.

Dedeker: Oh, Jase, okay. Yeah.

Jase: Fear of aging means not being young.

Dedeker: Thank you. Thank you for making that clear.

Emily: Well, that's a really, that's an interesting distinction there, though, Jase, because do you think, do you think young people do fear aging in the same way that those of us who are on the, teaching people fear.

Dedeker: Fear. Okay, hold on. I need to stop us because I actually got direct feedback from a listener. Oh, okay. This week, a listener who was older than us. Yeah.

Jase: Going, stop talking about being old.

Dedeker: Yeah, she was going back through the back catalog and when we were even younger complaining about even old, and she was just like, y'all need to shut up. You're not old.

Jase: Okay.

Emily: I mean, fair.

Dedeker: Fair.

Emily: Fair.

Dedeker: Yes.

Emily: I do appreciate that. I appreciate that. I think it's just so personally for me, I will say like I'm dating somebody that is seven years younger than I am right now, which is a first for me. I've never done that before, but it just so happens that that is what's occurring right now. And yeah, it is a little scary at times. I think that this is something that a lot of heterosexual men traditionally go through, I guess, when they are dating women. Often men will date younger women, and I'm doing the opposite of that right now. But, you know, when you see a lot of younger, beautiful women in a very metropolitan city, it's easy to compare yourself to them and know that your partner is closer in age to some of them than you are, for instance, and that you're not going to stop the aging process. It's just going to keep happening. So all of those fears, absolutely, we get it and sympathize and empathize with all of that. But again, I do think there's-- it's a privilege to get older, and it's a privilege to also be in a position where you have a lot of wisdom and a lot of time just living on this planet and knowing things that younger people don't. And I try to tell myself that when my body is never gonna be the youngest body or the most beautiful person or whatever. But I do have, I think, a lot of experience that People who are quite a bit younger than I am don't have, and I at least can look at that and know, like, that's something that I hopefully can bring to the relationship in a way that other people might not be able to who are younger than I am.

Dedeker: Can I? I'm going to drop in the insufferable Buddhist alert.

Emily: It's about to happen. Here we go.

Dedeker: It should sound like, I guess it probably sounds like a gong or like a singing bowl. That's the...

Emily: You don't have a singing bowl, Edie. I talk about that. I talk about that. Amazingly.

Dedeker: This all makes me think of a client I had years and years ago, like right when I was first starting to work with clients, and she shared about examining her feelings that would come up when she felt jealous of, yeah, if her partner dated somebody who was younger, and that she had a moment of realizing, like, oh yeah, it totally makes sense for me to have upsetting feelings seeing a younger person because, like, I'm gonna die sooner than they are. And for her, it was a place to offer some compassion to herself instead of getting lost in the comparison. And that's something that I've tried on sometimes too, where like when I find myself comparing my looks to somebody else or just like being so baffled watching teenagers make TikToks or whatever it is that makes me feel old, that then I remind myself, right, it's because I'm going to die. And for me, Rather than that being.

Emily: A source of suicide.

Dedeker: I don't know, call it comfort. It's a redirect. It's a redirect into the horror of death instead of the anxiety of insecurity. No, I'm just kidding. No, I find it more of a, I don't know. It's like a, okay, sorry. Okay, I already gave you the insufferable Buddhist alarm, so I'm not going to keep apologizing.

Jase: Okay.

Dedeker: I don't know. I think it's good to have reminders of our own mortality. And for me, it actually helps snap me out of, okay, instead of sitting here, crabbing at myself or feeling insecure, I should be enjoying my life and be happy to be alive right now. And to me, that helps act as like a little circuit breaker, I suppose, that knocks me out of like that comparison game. That's not gonna work for everybody, but it helps for me.

Jase: Okay. I feel like I need to rein us back in, 'cause I feel like we've gone off the deep end, off of two different deep ends on different sides of the pool. I don't know how this pool works.

Dedeker: Well, one pool, there is death. One end of the pool, there is death.

Emily: And at the other end of the.

Jase: Pool, which I guess is Emily's end of the pool, it's like somehow regressing to become an infant or something like that. I don't know.

Emily: I am not saying that. What?

Jase: It's a Benjamin Button kind of a thing, aging backwards. No, I don't know. To bring it back to you, though, is that, you know, if we're feeling jealousy or feelings about people that are younger than ourselves, that's one thing. But I think that when it comes to this specific, looking at it from the lens of my partner, is dating other people. Some of them might be younger than me. Some of them might be similar to me, that kind of stuff. That I think we're also gonna be remiss if we don't remember that there's this aspect of, yes, but your partner's dating you. And it sounds like there might be some communication challenges here, but ultimately, you've been together for a couple years, and you said that mostly you've been mono, like, romantic with each other. So you're having hookups with other people. But your partner is with you. And I think that on the one hand, you could say, well, if my partner dated somebody else who was younger and hotter than me and just the same as me in every other way, which of course is absurd to actually have that happen, but it can feel that way, that if they would leave you for that person, it's like, well, then maybe this wasn't really a relationship worth hanging on to. And I know that sounds so grim to say, But it's kind of like, you're not that replaceable. And I don't think your partner would think of you as that replaceable. And if they did, fuck them. Like, kick them to the curb right now, right? If they're like, oh, yeah, I'm dating you until I find someone younger and hotter, who would say that? It's a terrible thing to say. If your partner said that, you should not be into this person. Like, that's just a bad, a very red flag. A chartreuse flag, if you will.

Dedeker: Chartreuse is green.

Jase: Ah, shit. What's the word?

Emily: You're thinking of a vermillion flag. Creamsicle flag.

Jase: Yes, thank you.

Dedeker: I think that's a good time to take a little break.

Emily: Yes, we calm ourselves down. For a million.

Dedeker: We remember our color synonym words. Yeah.

Jase: Okay. I'll go look at a color wheel for a second during this break, but we're gonna take a quick moment to talk about some sponsors for this show. Please do give them a listen. Use our promo codes or our links. They're all in our episode description. That really does help support our show. And of course, if you would rather support us more directly, the best way to do that is by becoming one of our subscribers at multiamory.com/join. We have an amazing community there. You get ad-free episodes, release early, as well as our monthly video meetup groups. It's a really fantastic time and we really appreciate the people who join that community to support us at whatever level they can, because that does show that you appreciate what it is that we do here and that we keep doing this after 11 years and and keep trying to make it better and bring you the best information we can. So if that's something that you get value from, we'd really appreciate seeing you there at multiamory.com/join. And in the meantime, check out these ads and give them a visit.

Dedeker: Okay, so moving along, and I think these next two could be a little bit related to each other. So this struggle of, you know, my partner has better luck in dating and they're dating people that I'm also attracted to. They're dating the kind of people that I would want to be dating and having more success than I am having.

Jase: Mm-hmm.

Dedeker: Yeah.

Emily: This is a tough one, and I think something that happens, unfortunately, like fairly often, there are going to be times when, at the very least, somebody is having more success than their partner is at dating or vice versa. And I think it's very, very difficult to not go into comparison there between yourself and your partner and wondering, like, why exactly am I not having people be interested in me as well? What is it about me?

Jase: Yeah, it's hard not to take that personally when it feels like you're not having that luck. Like, why aren't they interested in me? Oh, it must be because I'm bad somehow.

Emily: Absolutely. Yeah. So I definitely get that. And I think I'm not exactly sure what to say about that, except for that I think hopefully at some point you will also have luck and potentially have people that are interested in you as well. And maybe that is, you know, a change of scenery in terms of like not just using the apps, for instance, but actually going out and exploring what your city has to offer in terms of activities, things like that. There was a New York Times article recently about like, get off the apps and go into bars and sit down at a bar and just see what happens kind of thing, trying to meet people there, and that that is what people should be doing as opposed to just endlessly swiping. So I do think that often we will hide behind an app because it feels safer and it feels like maybe the rejection won't be as pronounced and powerful. But I do think that sometimes actually being able to meet somebody in person and get that face to face with them as opposed to just being a picture on a screen is far more powerful than the alternative.

Dedeker: Yeah, I mean, I think this, There's sort of a paradox here where on the one hand, it's truth that the success or lack of success that your partner might be meeting and dating doesn't really necessarily have anything to do with you and the success that you are or are not finding and dating, right? It's like you're two separate people with two separate approaches, you know, and the timelines of how, where, how quickly you find the thing that you're looking for is going to be different. There's that part of it. And there's also the part of it where, I mean, we could get into a really big discussion about things like desirability politics, right? And just like who, because of their identity markers or the way that they look or the way that they present, is gonna have more options on a dating app, for instance, or might be more likely to have people approach them in a bar or things like that. So it's like, that is a piece of this, too. And the reason why I want to connect it to like the next portion, which is about like, you know, the perceived kind of difference in privilege, right? Between the two of you. This one is like so tricky. And I often think about something that Esther Perel said, the patron saint of relationship podcasters, about being able to feel into this space of, I don't wish that it was harder for you. I just wish that it was easier for me. And to be totally honest, like the times when I have really felt the unfairness of life or like really felt the unfairness of privilege between myself and a partner, like I really have to sit and examine that because there are some times where I'm like, honestly, I would love to see you taken down a peg and maybe things be a little bit harder for you, but then I also have to dig under that and be like, it's because I think that if it was harder for you that then I would feel better or it would like feel easier for me, right? So really it all kind of leads back to like, this is just about me wishing that some things were easier for me. And I think that like when you're expressing this, exploring this, or maybe even if you're opening up to your partner about this, again, I think it's important to come from that place, right? Of like, this is less about, I want you to change your dating in some way, or I want you to hold yourself back, or like, I want you to put in obstacles for yourself to make it harder so it feels like we're equal in that way. It is more about like, I feel frustrated because there's a certain ease that I long for that I feel like you have. And again, I don't know if I'm very helpful because I don't think that's necessarily an actionable conversation that the two of you can have. It's not necessarily a solvable problem, but it is a place where you can understand each other and maybe get some empathy and join each other in that way.

Jase: Something else to think about with this particular situation is that when you're on apps, if most of your dating is happening through apps, and we're just assuming that that's the case since it tends to be nowadays, but In the apps, you can set up in advance a lot of filters for who it is that you're looking for based on all sorts of things among those being gender, age, orientation, things like that. And so I do think that for a large number of people who are trans or queer or somewhere on any kind of spectrum, people that are men, cis men, there's probably a decent chance that they're gonna be somewhere in their category of people they can be attracted to.

Dedeker: Right?

Jase: Same with cis women that like you're kind of because there's so many of them and because we're exposed to them so much, it's like you're likely to end up not getting filtered out by search results. Maybe they're not looking for you, but you're probably not getting filtered out. Sure, sometimes, sometimes maybe. But on the other hand, if someone's not specifically searching for trans people, that's a larger pool that you're gonna get filtered out of, which is just another case for like meeting people through communities or outing events or other places where, where you're not able to be boiled down as much. To just do you fit XYZ stats that I think maybe right now I might like someone who fit those traits. Like that, that's the big problem with dating apps is this sort of illusion of abundance. And also it's really easy to boil people down to just a few statistics about them and not actually who they are at all or what makes them interesting or attractive or, or any of that. So just to throw that one out there as well, because yeah, like, your partner being a cis man has a lot more privilege in that category. There is just no arguing that that's not true, right? Because it is. And so it is about this like, well, okay, given that fact, what can I do about it, right? How can I change how I feel about it? How can I have better relationships myself? Because those are the things that you can actually have some control over and some influence on how you feel about those things and what you do about them.

Emily: Going back slightly to what Dedeker was talking about regarding how to have conversations with your partner about this, I do at times find myself just sometimes wanting to be heard or acknowledged by my partner that this is really difficult for me and for there to be a certain amount of understanding from them that, yeah, I get that. I see how challenging that is, as opposed to a, well, sorry, that's just kind of the way it is, or that sounds really tough and kind of a brush off, that there is a real, like, fundamental understanding and acknowledgment from them. And so if there's a way for the two of you to have-- for you to, like, have a request there, potentially, of, I would really appreciate you to see the challenge here and to acknowledge it and to sit with me in a way that because it's really tough. And I don't maybe necessarily always feel like you get that or acknowledge it in the way that I would like you to, for instance. Because I do think sometimes just being seen in that way means a lot, especially by the person that you love. Our partners don't always do that in the way that we want, and that sometimes is difficult. And then you feel like, well, shit, maybe I just shouldn't even bring this to them because they're not giving me what I need in this moment. And they don't really seem to care about it as much as I do. They become not as safe to speak about that particular struggle to, for instance. So if there's a way to have a radar to have some sort of discussion surrounding that, I do think that it's just an important one to have if this is something that would potentially aid you in some of the next ones, which are like ideally you feeling better about yourself, even though the scenario is difficult for you.

Dedeker: Okay, so our second to last one here that this relationship is relatively new. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but to me, I just think about how this is probably a relationship that's still building earned secure attachment. And even if you're both very conscientious and very communicative and very intentional, maybe your partner is even really great at offering reassurance, that's good. You know, you shouldn't stop that necessarily. However, sometimes you just need to actually live through the experience of your partner going and dating someone or going and hooking up with someone and then coming back home. To you literally or metaphorically, you don't have to be living together. You know, your partner coming back to you and like your nervous system needs to experience that sometimes a hundred times before it actually gets the message of, oh yeah, okay, I can rest a little bit more. Like I know my partner's here, right? Like even if my partner's going out and hooking up, even if my partner's going out and hooking up with people who seem similar to me, even if I have these challenging emotions come up, I come back to my partner, my partner comes back to me, we're able to reconnect and feel close again, that like sometimes that needs to be repeated many times. And many more times than can happen in even just like the first year of a relationship. So I think my only piece of advice there is just to bear that in mind that it's like the two of you are still growing together in this. And if you can continue to repeat that cycle, I mean, the classic terminology for it is like the rupture and repair cycle, but it doesn't even necessarily have to be a rupture. It's kind of just like you separate from each other, right? You go do your own thing. You go out on your separate dates or hookups or whatever, and then you come back together. Like, if you can keep repeating that in a healthy intimacy building way, like that's going to be the fastest thing to build that sense of earned security.

Emily: Yeah. At the beginning of this question, this person said that we had some seriously rocky beginnings, but have been more stably in love and lust as partners for about a year now. But I do think that that instability at the beginning, those are difficult things to kind of move yourself out of the thought process or the habit or the pattern of feeling like things may still be rocky at some point again. And to just leave an imprint. I think that's going on in a.

Dedeker: Relationship these things leave imprints.

Emily: Absolutely. And I do think, I mean, even coming out of, you know, old relationships and going into new ones and remembering, like, the challenges or patterns of old relationships and expecting them to be similar in this new relationship, relationship or if perhaps behaviors have now changed, but feeling like, okay, is this actual change that is going to stick? I think, like Dedeker said, time is what ultimately is going to do that, but it may still take quite a bit of time. A year is not that long. I am shocked still at times how, for example, my long, very challenging relationship, how things from that just still come up. Even though I've been out of that relationship for a year and a half, almost two years now, coming up on two years at the end of this year. And it's kind of remarkable just how you think that you're over something, but then it just swells up again. And so give yourself grace and give yourself time that it just may take a little bit longer for you to feel secure and comfortable and that that's okay. And that hopefully the two of you can work together to figure out how to make yourselves as secure as possible in this relationship.

Jase: Yeah, I mean, to speak from some more personal experience, Dedeker and my relationship also had, I would say, a rocky start. Something that the three of us have talked about on the show before that we usually refer to as the dark times. And it was during like years one and two of this podcast, there was other stuff going on in our relationships that was challenging. It was, this rocky start, I guess you could say. And the question asker here didn't give us the details about what the seriously rocky beginnings entailed. But I can say that from my experience, it was rocky and hard, and then we came through it in a positive way. And it was like, okay, yeah, this is good. But still, I was much, much quicker to get triggered to be jealous or to be scared of dating someone new or to be worried about a new partner or to just kind of see shadows around the corner, I guess you could say, because there was this rocky history. And I know that we had lots of conversations about it. And I remember at one point, I want to say this was at least a year after that, where I still got upset about something and we had a serious conversation where Dedeker was like, I feel like this keeps coming up for you. Like, is there something that I can do or something we can actually do to like get you to be able to leave that behind and kind of enter this new way of being it? I don't remember how she said it. It was a long time ago. And obviously I was very emotional at the time, but it was something that just took time. And it was kind of like having that talk about a year after things got better, and then still gradually was a process of becoming more comfortable to the point where for the last several years, I feel very comfortable with Dedeker dating other people, living with them for multiple months in other countries and things like that.

Dedeker: I'm like, yeah, that's still work on me dating podcasters.

Jase: We haven't tried that one yet.

Emily: It's true. Very scary rocky territory potentially.

Jase: Yeah, yeah. But anyway, what I'm getting at is that that took quite a lot of time, but we did get to a really good place. And so just to throw that out there is some compassion for how relatively recent that rocky time is to now. To also realize that can have a lasting effect and it can be harder to get that confidence or that confidence isn't the right word. What am I looking for? A feeling of stability or that you can trust in a relationship?

Dedeker: I mean, I think the clinical term is secure attachment. Is that what you're looking for?

Jase: I don't know. I feel like I want something a little more real and less clinical sounding.

Dedeker: Yeah.

Jase: Yeah.

Dedeker: Assuredness, groundedness, solidness.

Emily: Well, also just, yeah, that your nervous system isn't going to go into overdrive when you know that your partner just hooked up with someone when you learn that, or when you learn that that they're having feelings for someone new and they might want to start dating them, or they've been talking to someone for a while and things are escalating. Any of the above that like that doesn't send your nervous system into overdrive so much that you ruminate on it and it's all that you can think about and all that your discussions entail is talking about that thing. I think that's something that in my current partnership, I still struggle with. Some. And again, it's just like continuing to self-soothe and reassure yourself as much as you can. Ask for reassurance when you need it. Work through some of those things with a therapist, with friends, with people that aren't just your partner, because you don't want to just have to rely on them to be your only source of any of the above, any of the work that needs to be done there, because that's a really challenging thing for them to have to do exclusively and not really fair to them. I think, like, try to find other people who you can speak to about it. If all of these things are really tough for you, and it's understandable that they might be, and that they clearly are.

Dedeker: Can we talk about the last piece? Of course. Which they summed up.

Emily: It's the most difficult of all.

Dedeker: Yeah. Can I learn to love myself better to be more genuinely and wholeheartedly nonmonogamous? Yeah.

Emily: Can all of us?

Jase: It's a beautiful way to phrase the question.

Dedeker: It is. Yeah.

Jase: How can I love myself more fully? I like that.

Dedeker: I feel like I need to slide I right out the gate and say myself personally, I really disagree with the idiom about how you have to love yourself first before anybody else can love you. Because sometimes the way that we heal and learn how to actually love ourselves is through the love of others, not just the romantic love of others. It can be the platonic love, the queer platonic love, the familial love of others. And yeah, I think that when you're really down in the dumps about self-worth and self-image, there's two places that I tend to go. One of them is I just kind of try to lean on whatever love is there in my life. And now traditionally for some people, it's like turning to a partner for some sort of like external validation or reassurance. And that's okay. I don't think that that's like absolutely toxic. Like sometimes we need that. We need the pep talk from the people who know us and love us the most. But it also can be good to just lean on your community, to lean on your chosen family, right? To reach out to the people who are in your network, even if you're not sure if it's okay to ask for things. I think this is why I always like doing the whole pay it forward model, right? Of when I'm feeling particularly lonely or unloved, I try to think about, who can I extend some love and some companionship to? And I know it sounds so corny and cheesy and fluffy, but it really does work, right? So for me, it means things like, is there a friend that I haven't texted for a while? Or is there a friend where I know it'll delight them if I send them some candy randomly in the mail, right? Just little things that I can do to extend myself to people and And I find it really does help. It's not the immediate feedback loop of a partner reassuring you or telling you that you're amazing and you're great, but it feels like it's kind of more like planting seeds, I guess. So that's one direction that I tend to go. And then the other direction that I like to go is thinking about self-exploratory or self-expansion kind of activities, as in what are the things that bring me joy? What are the things I feel curious about? What are the things that I want to learn about? Or is there something I wanna do with my hands? Like for me, it helps to have a sense of like, I'm learning something or I'm growing in some kind of way. And I don't just mean like you're listening to the Multiamory podcast on repeat, trying to like deal with your interpersonal issues. That's for some other time. I'm talking about more joyful growth, right? Not, you know, growth to try to like patch up your perceived flaws and insecurities and stuff like that. Is that making sense? Those are kind of the two places that I go. I don't have like a quick fix for suddenly having really wonderful self-worth and suddenly loving yourself. But it's like that's where I turn to.

Jase: Yeah, and I like that one. It's a classic, the kind of giving love to others as a way to get out of your own head, focusing on feeling bad about yourself. I was just looking up our episode 387 and 388, 2022, it looks like. We did a little two-part series back then about how to gain self-worth and stop comparing yourself to others. Looking through these notes, holy moly, it is research jam-packed. Really? So, you know, buckle in, get your notepad out, maybe go back, check those episodes out for some resources. It goes, looks at a lot of different studies, you know, talks about a lot of different possibilities. I'm pretty sure we talk about this one of kind of paying it forward like Dedeker talks about. There's also gratitude is one that comes up a lot. And I know that's so played out in the like positive psychology world, but it is. One that's been shown to be helpful, and there is a lot of evidence to support that of like focusing on the things that you are grateful for helps get your brain thinking about those things more often. If you force yourself to think about them sometimes, then they're easier to think of other times. So there's a lot of stuff in there, so you could definitely go check out those two episodes as well. 387 and 388 called How to Gain Self Worth and Stop Comparing.

Emily: I know we all love to be with our partners, and it's really fun to hang out with them all the time, especially when you're in the throes of NRE and early on in a relationship. But I really encourage you to go out and do something by yourself or with friends that is completely separate from them and completely about you and for yourself. And to see how lovely that can be, because I think many of us get wrapped up in 'we are a unit', or I have to be thinking about them all the time, and what is it that they want to do, or what is it that we want to do together, or we need to be hanging out with their friends or our mutual friends or stuff like that. But if you can find things to do, whether that be stuff in your own community that's maybe separate from them, or with your own friends that don't necessarily know them as well, or whatever it is that you find time to be joyful in the things that you love that are just for you. I think that that is a great reminder for yourself that you were a person before them and will still be a great person after them if that is what happens, and that you can be okay just being by yourself or just being with your group of friends or your community or doing the things that you love to do. I had an experience like that recently that was something that was with classmates that I hadn't seen in a really long time, and it was so fun and didn't involve my partner at all. And I was like, damn, like, yeah, okay, I am cool without this person, and it's great. Not that I don't love him, and not all of those things can't be true too, but it was really nice to just remember, yeah, I can do things just for myself, and that felt really good.

Dedeker: Well, thank you seeing double into Big Apple. I hope that this helps you see single in the Big Apple.

Emily: I hope your vision is 2020 again, very soon.

Dedeker: Yeah, I hope that we've delivered some LASIK to you.

Jase: You two have taken this metaphor way too far.

Dedeker: It's LASIK of love, Jase.

Emily: Oh, there you go.

Jase: Do you like LASIK of love? I mean, what is that? That's like my post- LASIK of love.

Emily: Seeing Clear. Seeing Clear also sounds like some sort of Scientology thesis. Yeah, that was a Scientology documentary.

Dedeker: We don't want to go there.

Jase: But Lasik of Love is definitely my post rock album that I'm going to make.

Dedeker: Okay.

Emily: Post rock.

Dedeker: I'll be looking forward to that.

Emily: Yeah. Okay. All righty. Well, thank you all out there for listening this week, and we hope that you learned something. I love questions from listeners. It's just such a fun time to kind of go through and explore the everyday challenges that we all have and think about what it is that we would do in those scenarios and also hopefully give some of our advice, some advice from three people who have been there and who are older and wiser than we once were, hopefully. Maybe. The best place to share your thoughts with other listeners about this episode is in the episode discussion channel in our Discord server, or you can post in our private Facebook group. You can get access to those groups and join our exclusive community by going to multiamory.com/join. In addition, you can share with us publicly on Instagram at @multiamory_podcast.

Emily: Multiamory is created and produced by Jase Lindgren, Dedeker Winston, and me, Emily Matlack. Our production assistants are Rachel Schenewerk and Carson Collins. Our theme song is Forms I Know I Did by Josh and Anand from the Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is available on this episode’s page on multiamory.com.