337 - Kids, Consent, and Sex Education
Ashley Robertson has joined us for this week’s episode to discuss age-appropriate education surrounding consent, sex education, and polyamory. Throughout the episode she touches on:
Age-appropriate conversations about sex.
Common mistakes parents or caregivers make.
Consent.
Pornography.
Non-monogamy.
How to teach kids to talk to people outside their family.
How to prepare kids for the contradictions and judgments they might get from others.
How to deal with feelings of guilt for wanting to get out of the house or go on date night.
How to discuss kink.
Special tips for kids with special needs.
How to repair trust with a child.
Best books to read about these subjects with children.
Find more about Ashley on her website, her Instagram @msashleyrobertson, her Facebook group, and her Facebook business page.
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we're talking about children. What about the children? That's right, it is time to talk about the kiddos. Specifically in this episode, we're focusing on age-appropriate education about things like sex and consent, as well as talking to kids about non-monogamy. To help us talk about this very important topic, we are joined by Ashley Robertson.
Ashley specializes in childcare and education with three teaching degrees under her belt, as well as being a facilitator of the Our Whole Lives curriculum, which is a sex education program that covers the full range from babyhood all the way through retirement. Ashley specializes in parent education focusing on assisting parents to increase sex-positivity within their family culture, in addition to being polyamorous, kinky, and a parent herself. Ashley, thank you so much for joining us.
Ashley: I'm excited to be with you and super honored. I listen to your podcast religiously, and I can't believe that we're talking.
Emily: Thank you so much.
Dedeker: Yes, thank you so much for being here. This is a topic that so many, so many, so many people have asked about and have wanted us to cover, and we've always hesitated to cover it because none of us have our own direct children. By direct children, I mean there's children in our lives, but none of us have our own bio kids that we're raising, and so we're so excited to have someone with your knowledge and expertise on to help our audience out.
Ashley: Thank you. I will say that I speak from a very specific set of experiences. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm hoping to share stories and tips that might help you.
Jase: Could we start out by just telling us, how did you get into this? How did you end up with three education degrees? What happened?
Emily: Very impressive.
Dedeker: How did you let this happen?
Ashley: I knew from a long time ago that I was going to be a teacher, and did the whole go to college thing and got into the classroom and realized that it wasn't for me. I couldn't manage all of the systemic expectations of the way that we treat children in public schools, and so for me, I needed a different way of being a teacher that respected kids in a very different way.
I opened my own in-home daycare, and I've been teaching the Our Whole Lives curriculum through the Unitarian Universalist Church for the past five years. That especially taught me that I needed a different kind of education, one where instead of me just pouring knowledge into kids, I was instead giving them practice for critical thinking for themselves. I just didn't quite fit in the traditional way of teaching.
Jase: Wow.
Dedeker: Now, I'm curious to hear a little bit more about the curriculum that you teach specifically. First of all, I'm curious to know what drew you to that in the first place, and then secondly, the way that Jase described it in our intro was covering school range from babyhood to retirement, and I'm assuming that's not retirement from babyhood, that's actual retirement. I just want to know more about what you teach, what the thought process is behind that?
Ashley: Absolutely. I started attending a Unitarian Universalist Church and they were talking about this program and the youth were having their coming of age aging out ceremony, and every single high schooler talked about how transformative their experience with the Our Whole Lives curriculum was and how it had shaped them so that when they were going off to college, they were well prepared for their whole lives as opposed to just sex-ed, human reproduction, STIs, pregnancy prevention, all that stuff.
They were like, "This is the one thing this church really gave me." I was like, "Huh, this is magic. I don't know what this is." Then all of a sudden, they needed trainers, they needed facilitators, and so they were asking people, "Would you be willing to go to this multi-day training? Go away and spend all your time and really learn and immerse in it?" and I was like, "Yes, that sounds great."
Then I came out of it so convinced that comprehensive sex-ed is the way to do sex-ed. Basically, the curriculum starts in kindergarten, but it can be aged down easily with this assumption that our bodies are meant for pleasure, our bodies are meant to be a thing we use for curiosity and exploration, and the bodies of others are theirs and we have to ask for consent. It starts in kindergarten and they're serious about it.
It's just a really neat way of doing sex-ed. There's three parts to the curriculum, the first third of the curriculum is all about me. It's what makes me happy? What do I like to do? What sensations make me feel safe and secure and whole? What's my family like? What's my origin story? That sort of stuff. Then the second third of the curriculum is what's out in the world? How are other families made? How are other babies made? What kind of love can there be? What are the options? What are the dangers? What is the history? All of that.
Then the third other curriculum is how do I interact with the world? What are my values, and then how do I communicate that? How do I negotiate? How do I say no? What are my sexual assault prevention strategies? Basically, they start with the most accessible information, and then they build rapport with their students until they get to the end where we backload the scary stuff that most of the other education curriculums frontload, so it's not fear-based.
It's based on this relationship and this idea that the only right answer is, does this resonate with your values? That's the only right answer. Then from there, families can continue that conversation.
Emily: I'm curious because you said that it starts when the kids are in kindergarten, but if they're moving through to retirement, does the curriculum continue, or is it also for people who have children who need to be implementing the skills found in the curriculum for their kids? Can you explain that a little bit? I'm just like, how does it move to infinity and beyond with people?
Ashley: Each facilitator gets trained in an age group. I was trained in elementary, and then middle school, and then high school. I've done the youth portion, and then there is continued training. If someone prefers to work specifically with just adults, there is an adult training, and then now, they've expanded to older adults. The curriculum is specific to the age group, it's not like you take the adult curriculum in order to implement it with your kids.
You take the adult curriculum in order to do self-work for yourself. If you're interested in using strategies and lessons and workshops with your kids, then you would use the age-appropriate curriculum directly with your kids.
Emily: So cool. I know of quite a few adults who could use that training for life.
Dedeker: I feel like all of us. I'm just having my mind blown just thinking about the idea of having sex education, where, like you were saying, the scary stuff is backloaded instead of frontloaded. I can't even wrap my brain around what that must be like because if I think about all of my sex education, it's like that's the most salient, vibrant, vivid thing that stands out in your mind, it's all the horrible text pictures.
Emily: Show all the pictures.
Dedeker: Exactly, and just dreading going to sex-ed class because it's just going to be a bummer the entire time. It's absolutely wild to me to think about starting from such a young age, your first conversation's about sex and your bodies and consent are a positive thing is just wild.
Ashley: I'm curious from your perspective, what did you feel about sex-ed when you were growing up?
Emily: A little titillated actually.
Dedeker: Did you?
Emily: Absolutely, yes because I think I was also trying to understand and figure out where I fit into the world sexually and my sexual identity as well, and that's not something that, in my opinion, schools in 1990s and 2000s did anything to help you with, but it was fascinating, and mine were co-ed too. I think they were. Maybe I'm lying to all of our listeners, but I remember boys being there too.
Jase: I think most of mine was just in the classroom, your normal classroom teacher in fourth grade or fifth grade or whatever would do this. I don't think we had any until I was fifth grade, it was the first thing that I did.
Emily: Yes, I think fourth or fifth grade for sure.
Dedeker: I went to a Christian school, so my first sex-ed classes were very much segregated very, very intensely and never spoken about outside of just sex-ed class. I had co-ed classes in high school and stuff like that, but I don't think I actually had a really good sex-ed class where I actually learned interesting stuff that felt relevant to myself in my life until I was in college and I voluntarily chose to take a human sexuality class. I feel really glad that I did that because I think that if I hadn't, I would have the Christian school sex education.
Jase: To my parents' credit, I think the best sex education I got was actually a book that my mom bought for me. It was like the "what's happening to my body" book for boys or something, one of those kind of things.
Emily: Like I had the girl's version o those.
Dedeker: Oh, yes, those.
Jase: I was fascinated. I was so into this book because I am also a nerd, so I was like, "Wow, science and anatomy, this is cool."
I think that I learned a lot of technical stuff there, but what's really interesting to me is that with all of us, and I still can't even wrap my mind around what this would have been like, but none of any of it is about discovering what you like or what feels good for you or how to express that or how to approach things like consent in a way that's positive.
Consent is an awesome way to have better relationships. I'm melting down even imagining what my life could have been if that was in the education I got instead.
Ashley: Yes, these ideas of pleasure and excitement and curiosity and novelty and all of those being positive things are just missing from most curriculums, and sensuality, especially sensuality. The idea that a kid that's bothered by the tag in their shirt being validated for that being something that they can have accommodated for in a way that is sex-ed, it's weird, but that's an early thing a lot of kids struggle with. The way that a parent addresses just that simple sense and need can be early sex-ed.
Dedeker: I think that makes a lot of sense. I think so many of us grow up, socialize to just really ignore our bodies. We really overvalue the whole head experience and really undervalue the body experience, and so then yes, when it comes to trying to learn to distinguish between what actually does feel good to me, what doesn't feel good to me versus what have I been told should feel good to me, what I have been told should feel bad to me that you can grow up with all that really muddled.
It makes a lot of sense that it can start just with the shirt tag. I feel like even pretty run-of-the-mill sex education in the States tends to get a lot of pushback from various people for various reasons. Have you gotten pushback, have you gotten concerned parents regarding this particular curriculum?
Ashley: The people that seek out this curriculum know about it, and so no, but I will say finding places that are willing to house this curriculum or host this curriculum is very, very hard. Also, I live in Indiana, which has an actual state law that says abstinence is the only option for public school education. That's not what this curriculum is even a little bit because science says that that doesn't work. In Indiana, especially, I have trouble getting clients, finding schools that will hire me.
Jase: Right, so it would have to just be private schools and charter schools and things like that, right?
Ashley: Private schools and extracurricular activities that parents private pay for like piano lessons or gymnastics, yes.
Emily: Wow, but really incredibly important. I think all three of us-
Ashley: So important.
Emily: - think about how it could have changed our lives in our early experiences with these topics, absolutely.
Ashley: For anyone who is in an area that has a Unitarian Universalist Church, I would recommend contacting them and saying, "Hey, when is your next Our Whole Lives curriculum available?" because most of the UU churches also won't advertise to the public just because of the potential issues that can cause, and so you'd have to contact the church. Also, UUA.
The UUA also runs this curriculum, United Church of Christ, UCC, that's what it is. UCC. The UUA, Unitarian Universalist Association, and the UCC, United Church of Christ, they both run this curriculum privately. If you're interested in participating, you could contact your local congregation and see if they have some openings.
Jase: For those--
Emily: I was going to ask, sorry, are both of those churches fairly woo-woo? Not going to have an issue with talking about sex with kids?
Ashley: The Unitarian Universalists are based on the humanist perspective and they're very science-based. Science has said for a very long time that comprehensive sex-ed actually reduces STI transmission and reduces teen pregnancy and reduces unwanted pregnancy because when people are fully informed, they usually make better choices.
The UU church is all about this giving us the real deal, letting us make choices, and then the UCC, they do religion differently, basically, than a lot of the other more staunch versions of Christianity.
Jase: United Church of Christ, UCC, is the one that I almost went to school to become a pastor for way back in the day. They're, generally speaking, a very liberal Christian church. It varies by church, though, because they're less top-down. It's more each congregation gets to decide for their own how much we're going to preach more of the traditional Christian values versus other ones.
I think for those of you out there listening who may be put off by the idea of going to a church for anything, I think that Unitarian is a good way to go because I know it's called a church and probably for tax reasons, that's important, but it's really not. It's almost more like school or free lectures about humanism and various religions. You learn about religions rather than practicing them or being told this one's the right one. For those of you out there worried about that, hopefully, that puts your mind at ease.
Emily: Or like me who don't know anything about church at all, except for a Drunk Bible Study.
Jase: Let's get into a little bit more about the actual curriculum that you teach, as well as, I guess, things you've learned through your education experience. I think a place to start is, you mentioned that your training was in this elementary, and then middle school, and then How would you summarize some of the differences there so that maybe our listeners, if they have elementary schoolers or middle schoolers or high schoolers in their life, they have a sense of what are some of these actual best practices rather than just conventional wisdom about what people should be told? What really are some of the best practices in talking to each of those age groups?
Ashley: With elementary school students, kids, especially when you're talking about sex stuff, they're logical, they're interested in information, they're seeking to learn about the world. It's very much heady, it's not so emotional, it's not so embarrassable, it's just the facts. This is why all sex educators are saying have these conversations early and often because if you can frontload tons of information in these early years when they're just sponges soaking it in, it's to your benefit in all ways and to your kids' benefit.
In middle school, there's a switch from aligning yourself with your parents and aligning yourself with adults of authority and seeking to please. Instead, there is this alignment with peers that starts to happen. In middle school, sex-ed becomes more of this embarrassment thing that starts to happen, but I'm going to say, it is possible for this to be done right and done well where that's not the case. I'm speaking in general terms.
This is when a middle schooler is going to start the eye-rolling when an adult tries to have a conversation with them or the avoidance tactics and all that sort of thing, that's middle school. During this time, it's better if those conversations are really, really, really short. Instead of it trying to be this like, "We're going to sit down and have this thing," instead of that happening, if it's done with humor or if it's done through shared TikToks or if it's done through text messaging and regularly, then you're going to have your kids attention and you're going to have more success.
This is also when in middle school, it's also when kids start sharing and comparing information, so it was like, "I heard this, I heard this." Mostly because they're not yet using the information. That's the big jump that happens in high school. In middle school, they're still learning and thinking about these topics, but they're not necessarily doing anything.
That's the big switch to high school is this is where we want sexual educators, we want to have already given them as much information as possible before they get to high school because, in high school, is when they're clarifying their values, they're clarifying their beliefs, they're clarifying who's in their circle and who's not and starting to act on the information that they have.
That freedom of getting a license, that freedom of having a job and having money, that freedom that starts to happen in high school, if we've already shared as much information as possible before this, they're better prepared.
Dedeker: I am really curious though to hear, so I feel like I can visualize having a conversation with a younger child, elementary-age child. Like you said, focusing on the facts, very logical, giving a lot of information. When you start getting into maybe share a TikTok and have a short conversation with your middle schooler, that's where I start to lose the sense of like, "Oh my God, what does it even look like?"
I guess I was wondering, do you have examples of stuff that you've seen parents do around that age, especially the middle school, high school age that you've seen be really successful?
Ashley: There's this one mom who whenever her teenage son is with her at the grocery store, they always walk down the aisle of condoms. She's the one pushing the cart, and so she's the one that's charting the path of the grocery store, and so they just always walk past it. It's one of those things where not a lot is said, but the mom will just be like, "Yes, there's the condoms, use one if you're going to do anything," and then they just keep going.
Instead of it being this big thing where, "Oh, we're going condom shopping today. Oh, mom's going to show me all the condoms, I'm dreading this, I'm sweating," instead of that, it's just a thing. He's like, "Yes, mom, seriously? Every time?" but every time, this mom does it. That's one example of a thing that someone I know does.
Another one, I'm trying to think, the creating a personal care kit is also something that can happen. Actually, that's almost late elementary school, but basically, this idea that a parent wants their menstruating kid to be prepared and for it not to be shameful or weird, so the parent intentionally creates a kit. Maybe it's just in a little IPSY bag, but it's available.
It has a change of leggings, change of underwear, a pad and tampon, and maybe a little personal white in there with a little Ziploc bags for anything that's messy. In that way, the mom is saying there's nothing shameful about this, but I want you to be prepared and I'm going to help you, and I'm a safe place to have this conversation.
Dedeker: Yes, that makes a lot of sense. When you put it that way, it feels very doable. The fact that the conversation doesn't have to be this super afterschool PSA thing where your teenager is super engaged and hooked into it, that it can be this weird little awkward interaction, but it seems like the really important part is happening.
Ashley: Yes, the repetition.
Dedeker: Making it just like it's not a taboo and the repetition.
Ashley: Yes.
Emily: I guess on the flip side, what are some common mistakes that parents or caregivers make for their kids of middle school and elementary school and high school age?
Ashley: The one I know that is done with love and care, and so it's not done with any mal intention is to say, "I'm always available, you can ask me any questions." This is that thing that is meant out of love, but what it does is take the responsibility off of the shoulder of the adult and put the entire responsibility into the lap of the youth.
Instead, adults should be saying something like, "I'm going to continue to ask you these questions because this is important, and I know that there are going to be things that come up." I'm here for questions, but just know I'm going to continue interjecting into your life because this is important information." Creating a different way of saying, "I'm here if you have questions," but making sure that they know you're still going to spearhead those conversations, you're still going to take on that responsibility, you're not just like, "This is a one-time thing I'm going to say," and then that's it.
Emily: Very cool.
Jase: When you were talking about these different ages, and still, this makes total sense, but it was really surprising when you said elementary schoolers, young kids, they're very logical and non-emotional about it. It's like, yes, of course, because it doesn't matter to them. It's not like there aren't stakes for them yet, it is just learning about the world.
That's, first of all, mind blowing to think of it that way, and I love that, but then you were talking about middle school and then into high school, we're getting into where they're sharing information, they're learning things, and then starting to apply them, develop their own values. I would imagine also that's the age where porn starts becoming a part of people's sexual education for good or bad.
I'm curious, how does the curriculum and what you've seen, how is that addressed? I know that when we posted about this for our Patreons, some people were talking about a lot of their focus is on trying to prevent their children from having access to porn, whereas others it's like maybe we talk to them about it more. I'm just curious, what does the curriculum say about that? How is that addressed?
Ashley: There's one workshop about pornography in the high school curriculum. It's a little lean for my opinion, basically saying pornography is for 18-year-olds and older, it's for adults. I say that that's lean because I think that that is the law, but the reality is that youth have access to a lot of things.
Emily: I definitely watched porn before I was 18.
Dedeker: Yes.
Jase: Absolutely, yes.
Ashley: I would prefer that content to talk more about sources for ethical porn and to talk more about collaborative problem solving with your youth or your kid. The idea of you as a parent come to your kid and you say, "This is a problem that I see. I see that I keep having hits on my--" I don't even know the right words right now. "I keep seeing hits on sites that are not supposed to be something that you're looking at, but I think that there's a need here that you're trying to fulfill.
What are some solutions we could come to manage this?" Instead of it just being like, "I'm the hammer, I'm bringing down the hammer," instead of it being that kind of parenting style, being more collaborative about it saying, "I see this happening, it is a problem. I think there's a need that's not met and it's my job as your parent to acknowledge those needs and meet your needs, so how can we do this and figure this out together."
In those situations, even for elementary school kids, there are resources for age appropriate images that kids can see. For example, in the Our Whole Lives elementary curriculum, each kid is supposed to have a doodle journal specifically for drawing penises and boobs vulvas and butts.
Emily: Fun.
Ashley: Yes, because then they're not doing it at school, inappropriate places on their assignments. They have a place where it is safe and acceptable for them to explore that, and so it's that sort of thing. If your high schooler is interested and curious and has a need, there should be accessible resources for fulfilling that need, especially erotica because erotica is one of those things that they can write or they can read and it's up to their own imagination to fill in the pictures for some of them.
Emily: Finally, before we go into our quick break, I just wanted to ask about talking about non-monogamy. I'm not sure if that's something that comes up in the curriculum.
Ashley: I put it in there.
Emily: You put it in there, oh, that's great. How does one even get into age appropriate conversations with kids on that subject? Is there a threshold in terms of time period at which one should begin talking about it?
Ashley: There's at least two workshops about family diversity. One of them is specifically what can families look like, and then the other one is more how are babies made. One happens early on in the curriculum and one happens later. The goal with the first one is to get kids and youth to recognize that their world is not the only right world. Whatever your family looks like is not the right one, that there's all kinds.
We read lots of children's books and there's illustrations and pictures that all of the different varieties that people can think of. Then in the later version of the workshop, the goal is to validate people that are creating a family through adoption or IVF or so many other things, surrogacy. There's a place for everyone and it's okay however you came into your family. I have found a couple of children's books that have an illustration that is not described in the text. The illustration could be a family of two moms and one dad. As I'm reading through with a group or my own kids, I can have those conversations and say like, "What do you think this family is made out of? Do you think this is an aunt? Do you think this is a babysitter? Do you think this is a second mom, and they have three adults in their family?" The pictures actually show more content than the words do. I think it's easier early on because, again, kids are like, "Oh, this is just how it is." If you get to it later, if you get to this conversation later, it's a little more complex.
Our goal is always to share with kids an answer to their question, but not overshare. That's our goal as parents. We want to make sure we understand the question first. We're actually clarifying, "Are you actually asking this?" Sometimes, the questions can be unclear. Then, we're answering their question, but they're not usually kids, especially middle schoolers and high schoolers. They're not usually asking about a parent's personal life necessarily. That's usually more of like, "Didn't want to know that." Our goal is to more answer the question, but not overshare.
Jase: Awesome. Thank you. In the second half of this episode, we got questions from and we're going to get into more of those specific situations, some specific concerns that people brought up, that was really, really interesting to see all of the different things that everyone brought up. I'm excited for us to talk about that. First, we're going to take a quick break to talk about our sponsors for this show, as well as some ways that you can support this show and help keep this content coming to all of y'all out there for free.
We're back. I posted a few weeks ago asking our patrons for what sorts of questions that they have for this episode. So many people are like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm glad you're finally doing this. Here's a million questions." Something that really struck me about it is that specifically when it comes to the question of talking to kids or kids and polyamory or non-monogamy, a sentiment that I got quite a lot was that the focus of a lot of what's out there is about, "How do you tell kids that you're polyamorous? What's age-appropriate for them?" A lot of people were like, "That's the easy part." Those resources are important, and that's good to know, but that's the easy part.
The hard part is, everything else, is managing, doing polyamory while you have kids, is wrestling with how the kids interact with the rest of the world, whether that's your other relatives, or it's their teachers or feedback that they would get from their peers or things like that. That's more where the majority of people's time comes in terms of how they handle that with their children. We just wanted to get into that a little bit as well as get into some more specific questions that people have brought.
Ashley: I do feel overwhelmed by this. I feel like there are no right answers. It's so dependent upon each family's risk profile. I am very privileged to be able to be entirely out within my community and be self-employed so that there's no risk of termination due to my relationship status. It's hard for me to answer this kind of question without acknowledging my privilege because there are so many people that do not live in that reality. I'm going to start off by saying that.
I think one of the most important things as a parent is to always address feelings first as opposed to content first. So and so finds out about your parents and says something to you at school, and then you feel really bad about it. Then, you come home and tell mom like, "Did you know that so and so saw you on a date, blah, blah, blah, blah, and now they're talking about you and about me and about our family." All of the details of what happened do not matter in that moment. The first thing you have to deal with is feelings, their emotions. The first thing you have to deal with is your own feelings and emotions.
If you feel elevated, and if you feel distraught, and if you feel freaked out, that has to be addressed. It has to be named. It has to come into the space and have space held for it before you can address any of the content because the reality of all of this is how your kid feels about their family and their family's values and who their family is and how it represents them, that's more important than whatever anyone said out on the streets. Making sure your kid feels safe and secure and a place to speak freely is your primary responsibility or your primary interest. Then after that is when you decide as a family how to manage the content of whatever happened. That would be my blanket answer I would say.
Dedeker: I think that's a very good and very clarifying piece of advice to really highlight what's actually important in those situations. That does lead to a question people were asking about how do we teach our kids how to talk to people outside of our family, whether that strangers or relatives. I imagine this can be not just about non-monogamy but also about sex or about consent. I am wondering, in your sex education, do we ever get into talking about these are the ways that you do and do not talk about sex to other people?
Ashley: There's this idea of a trusted circle of friends, and that idea of a trusted circle comes up in many different curriculums and many different resources for sex ed and also for kids and youth who have disabilities. This idea, especially for kids with autism, where they might not necessarily have a great grasp on social situations. They need to be told, "This is a trusted person in our circle," versus, "That's not a person in our circle." Then, they learn different behavior based on if that person is trusted or if that person is in their circle or not.
For example, a kid with Down syndrome is taught the people in their circle and taught they can hug and kiss people in their circle. Everyone else needs a wave or high five. For that example, you're teaching a set of social expectations that go with the developmental needs of your kid. This can be applied to non-monogamy as well. You could say, "There are people in our circle, and these people, you can say whatever you want to. I trust them. They can babysit for you. They can help you wipe your butt if you need help. These are our trusted circle people. Then, everyone outside of that, we have private family information. Please don't share certain private family information things outside of our circle." That's one way that certain curriculums talk about this as like the trusted circle.
It's also a good opportunity to share this idea of bias and racism and acts of unkindness and have some real conversations with your kids about what's out there in the world. You can do that without being a majorly depressive parent. You can be like, "This is the reality." Most kids can balance that in a way that doesn't make them anxious. It doesn't make them worried, doesn't make them sad. There are ways to teach about the realities of the world, matter of factly, and give your kids tools in order to navigate that.
Jase: Something I wanted to hit on just because you started talking about it a little bit. We did have a question specifically about tips for sharing with kids who have special needs or who are neurodivergent, have Down syndrome or autism spectrum, or something like that. I think that that explanation of circles and more explicitly laying out, these are not only social expectations but also how to keep you safe and what's acceptable in that way. I was just curious if you maybe had some other things having to do with just does sex education change in other ways in those situations? Are there any kind of tips for that?
Ashley: Yes. Kids with disabilities are primarily still kids. They all have their needs, their desires, their impulses. It's most important to see the human before we see the disability. With that being said, in Seattle, Washington in 2002, they did a project with a group of students and they followed these students until they were aged 21. This project included explicit instruction, extensive instruction in sexual behaviors, and looked for associated outcomes. The most interesting part about this study was that there was no in-classroom content that was taught. Everything that was done was done through parent education, teacher education, and social-emotional learning.
There was no discussion about parts or STDs or pregnancy or any of this stuff. Then once these students turned 21, they were surveyed about their sexual experiences and their number of pregnancies. The majority of these students had a lower than average rate of pregnancy and STD contraction by the age of 21. The interesting part about all of this is that primarily, we think that students with disabilities need extra instruction and explicit instruction, in order for them to benefit from whatever it is we're teaching them.
The reality of this program in Seattle was that they didn't need specific instruction on sex-ed topics they needed. They needed instructors that were informed about sex-ed topics and parents that were informed about sex-ed topics. Then they needed social-emotional training, as opposed to learning about sex-ed, in order to reduce their number of pregnancies and STI. I find that interesting because really, that project is saying that the most important part about sex-ed is being able to negotiate. being able to say no, being able to make choices for yourself, being able to say your feelings, being able to know who is a safe person to talk to, who is a good friend, who is not a good friend, these social-emotional skills that are just super invaluable.
For a youth that has been diagnosed with some sort of disability, making sure that they have social-emotional supports, and social-emotional training and activities and workshops and practice, is actually more beneficial than necessarily needing to tell them more about sex, or more often about sex or anything in the human sexual health and reproduction vein. I thought that was encouraging for people.
Dedeker: Yes. I've been on a soapbox for many years about the fact that it seems like we teach people to put on a condom, if you're lucky, we teach you, "Put on a condom." Then we don't teach anything, like you said, about the social-emotional side of things, nothing about who counts as a safe person to be in a relationship with, what counts as good communication, how do you speak up for yourself. We don't touch on any of that, this part that is the relationship education. That is really interesting to know that focusing even on the relationship, the emotional, the social, the communicative side of it, rather than exactly which antibiotic is going to fix your chlamydia actually has more long-lasting effects, that's really, really fascinating.
Ashley: I guess for families that are non-monogamous specifically, and they have a kid with a disability, I would say, it's to your benefit, to teach that relationship diversity is the norm, to teach that sexual orientation diversity is the norm, and to teach that gender is not a binary and that's the norm. Then from there, your kid can basically see the patterns of society. They will have that backbone of knowledge that says, "Everything is a spectrum." Everything, everything is a spectrum
Many kids, especially, they really like things to be in a box, things to be binary, things to be black and white. Instead just continue to break that over and over and over, because society is going to continue to tell them that that binary exists. If you can let them know that that's not the case and that's just an arbitrary set of rules, then they'll be able to see the color in the spectrums.
Jase: I want to pivot to a slightly different topic, something that also our listeners were interested in, which was how to talk to kids and specifically teenagers about things like kink and the appropriateness of that or if there are different ways in which to speak about it given a specific age range or anything along those lines. Can you discuss that a bit?
Ashley: I would love to. The first thing I want to say is that if you're talking with a teenager, try not to say, "You're just finding yourself, or this is a phase, you'll grow out of this." Those are two phrases that teenagers really hate, first of all, so that just turns the whole listening off. Second of all, we want to make sure that we encourage them to be curious about themselves forever. We don't want someone to say like, "Oh, this is who I am." Then they marry someone, and then they change. Then the person's like, "I signed up for that other version of you."
We want to break this idea that once you find yourself, you know who you are. Instead, we want to teach this idea of continuous curiosity. In this way, your kid is curious about kink, be excited, because they're curious about themselves. That's the first thing to celebrate with them. With that in mind, it's best to find out what they already know first. You can say something like, "It seems like you're curious about X, Y, Z. I'm curious what you already know so that I'm not wasting your time or repeating myself."
Fact find first. This is when you're going to be able to find out if they know what consent is because that's really important. There's a couple of versions of consent. One is yes, until no, which basically means it's okay for me to do things because I assume you're going to tell me no if you don't want it to happen to you. Not okay in kink, not even a little okay. If you notice that that's the version of consent your kid understands, you have a little work to do to teach them, "No, until yes". Which means no one should touch you. No one should do anything until everything is previously negotiated.
That's one thing that should be at the top of your list. If your teenager is interested in kink, teach them no until yes, consent. Then for beginners, if your kid is interested in trying some things, I recommend sensual play as the first thing that you want to tell your kid to try out. You can phrase it as if it's kinky, but really, it's just the stuff of sex. It's like, do sensual play and see what your partner likes and see what you like. If it's billed as kinky, then maybe that includes their hairbrush a little bit, or maybe it includes ice cubes. Ooh, that's so kinky, but it's still safe, it's sensual play. Our goal is to not jump into ball gags and restraints and anal beads. Our goal is to be like, "Let's just explore what feels good to you and the other person." Sensual play, I think, is the best way to steer your teenage, curious kinkster first.
Dedeker: Someone asked about repairing trust, someone shared a story of their 10-year-old reading a text chain over their shoulder without them realizing, I've heard a lot of stories. I've heard a lot of stories about 10-year-olds specifically, seems like there's something about that.
Jase: Yes, I noticed that you, a lot 10-year-olds, yes. Something clicks in their brain at that age or something.
Dedeker: To be clear, they're still smaller to be sneaky. Yes, there's something about that. I think there are a lot of people wondering about, "Is there's something about my sex life or my relationship life that I've chosen to keep private from my kid and they find out? How do I restore that trust? How do I make it so that this can still be a good conversation, a good connection with my kid?"
Ashley: I think the most important thing to think about when we're repairing with our kid is that we need to allow our kid and out in the conversation. It's best to do these conversations when we're shoulder to shoulder with our kids, instead of sitting face to face. It's best to do these conversations when we're doing something else instead of creating this big production of we're going to sit down to talk about this thing that happened. This can happen when you're driving in the car, this could happen when you're in the kitchen, both cooking, someone's chopping, someone's at the stove.
The goal is to not be staring your kid down because the reality is we still have the amygdala, monkey brain. When we feel threatened or put in a corner, the amygdala gets ignited, and then we want to fight or run away. We want to try to avoid that for our kid. I'm going to start with saying that, pick a well-resourced time to have the conversation when you're going to repair and then acknowledge that the thing happened.
Like, "I noticed this thing happened. You're not in trouble, but I felt weird about it. You probably had some feelings. What was your experience of that?" Leaving space for them to say, "Oh, I'm so pissed at you," or, "No big deal," or, "Whatever." Let them guide where that's going. Then you say how you felt about it, and what you think they're feeling if they didn't want to say what they were feeling like, "I felt like my privacy was invaded. I felt like I didn't handle it very well. I'm remorseful. I think you felt frustrated and confused."
Then you leave space for them to say, "Yes, I was."
Then ponder something. "I wonder if I could have done something different to avoid that. I don't want to make you feel frustrated or confused and I'm sorry." From that point, if your kid hasn't engaged with you, they don't want to share their feelings. They don't want to open up, you have done that work for them and at this point, you can say, "There's some things about being an adult. That means I have to keep some things private. It's not kids' stuff." You can like state the boundary and you can enforce a new rule. This is the strategy I want to share with everyone.
There is a family I know of that has a one-question rule. You can explain to your kids. In these situations where something comes up like this, and it is definitely an invasion of my privacy as an adult, as your parent, I still want you to have the ability to ask questions about that situation. I'm going to ask only one very thoughtful question each day. This way you're telling your kid, "Yes, you can be in my business and you can know stuff, but you better ask the right question because you only get one question today, and then tomorrow you'll only get one question because this is my private business."
Then for example, if your kid walks in on you having sex, and then there's this big production and something happens, you can come outside the door and you can say, "I know that we just had a situation. You probably feel some feelings. I probably feel some feelings. You may have your one question right now if you would like to know what you just saw or if you need to know anything." Then your kids think about what question they want to ask or they're like, no, I don't want to know anything but many times you get an inquisitive kid that will ask one question and then another, and then another and another and another until they're getting like all the information you didn't want to share and it's invading your privacy.
In this way, the one-question rule helps them know they need to really think before they ask the question and if you think that they're asking a question quickly and they're not really thinking it through, you can be like, "Is that your one question?" Then sometimes they'll like revisit that and ask a different question but that is one strategy for these situations like, okay, your kid found out they were reading texts over your shoulder. They might want to pry into past that boundary and it's okay if you want to offer them one question.
Dedeker: This is a good balance.
Jase: Absolutely.
Dedeker: Because I do think what I've noticed that a lot of parents, when their kids find something out, at least the parents that I know, I think in my circle, in these much more like sex-positive circles or non-monogamous circles, do you feel a little bit of pressure of like, "Well, once the cat's out of my, out of the bag, if my kid wants to know something, I have to tell them. If they have questions, I have to sit there and answer like 6 billion questions or have to come up with an answer to it." I do like that being the middle ground, right? Of giving the opportunity to ask the question without it having to be, I have to absolutely do the information dump on my child.
Jase: Our listeners were interested in what the best books were to read with kids on these subjects. If there are any out there that you would recommend. I think that you've talked about that before that there were a couple that you were going to recommend.
Ashley: I have a personally curated list of the best books out there. I have been creating it for five years. It is organized. My very favorite book for teaching consent with young kids is Can I Give You a Squish? By Emily Neilson. It's about a little mermaid kid who accidentally hugs a pufferfish and then the pufferfish puffed up because he doesn't like hugs and the little mermaid learns that there are other ways to show affection and that an ask needs to happen first. Wonderful You is by Lisa Graff and in this picture book, it shows a potential polyamorous female-female-male family. It shows all sorts of different families.
It's all about family diversity and basically, the repeating phrase of the book is we waited for you, we wanted you, and the we changes on every page. Another amazing book is The Bare Naked Book by Kathy Stinson. You're going to want the updated 2001 version of this one and in this book, there is a double-page spread all about genitals and it states specifically that genitals are just for you and it's geared for age five and younger. This is getting it in early, which is really great, really great.
I love the book Duck! Rabbit! by Amy Krouse Rosenthal because the entire book is an argument between two characters that are reading the book about what eats, what illustration is on each page. Is it a duck or is it a rabbit? It could be either on every single page. This book creates a great way to dialogue with kids about what is right and what is wrong. Like why do you have three dad's and they have a mom and dad? Are you a good family? Are they a good family? Are you doing the right thing morally? Are they doing the right thing morally and so this Duck! Rabbit! book creates space for that conversation, different perspectives are good. Yes.
Jase: That's amazing that that's come up actually in a lot of conversations we've had about no one having a monopoly on objective truth and that all of us have our own perceptions and that seems like that might really get to the heart of that. That's awesome.
Ashley: Another one that follows the same line of thinking is Penny and the Plain Piece of Paper by Miri Leshem-Pelly. Penny is a little scribbly character and she wants to go visit different types of print. She goes to a map and the map key tells her, oh, you're not or she goes to a map and the compass tells her she's not on the map key so she has to leave, and then she goes to a coloring book and the characters on the coloring book say she doesn't have a black outline, so she has to leave. She just keeps going to all these different pieces of print and she keeps finding out that she doesn't fit in with their rules. At the end of the story, she creates her own picture with her own rules, and then she invites all of the characters from all of the other versions of print into her world and says, I make my own rules. Love that book.
Jase: Nice. That's lovely.
Dedeker: Wow.
Ashley: Yes. In terms of actual sex ED, the best book for little kids is What Makes a Baby by Cory Silverberg, and in this book, I love that it says some have a uterus and some have a penis. It is trans-friendly and for youth that are like ages, maybe seven and older. It's Perfectly Normal, Changing Bodies, Growing Up, Sex, and Sexual Health by Robie H. Harris and Michael Emberley is the textbook that we used for the Our Whole Lives curriculum.
Jase: Nice.
Dedeker: Nice. That seems like a wealth of information for people to dive into. That's so exciting.
Jase: We will link to that list that you have, and that I guess is continually updated, right. As things get added to it-
Ashley: It's like over a hundred books long.
Jase: Nice. Oh, wow so great.
Dedeker: Excellent.
Jase: Gosh, well Ashley, thank you so much for taking the time to come on here and talk to us about this. I know our listeners have been waiting for this topic for a long time and hopefully, we'll do more episodes in the future about this as well because this is awesome stuff and really, really great. In our bonus, we're going to be talking a little bit about handling things like disclosure and teaching consent and what's okay to say to kids that are not your own, perhaps they're a partner's kids or a niece and nephew or something like that. I'm just going to talk about that. I personally am really interested to know for my godson how can I be the best cool uncle to him? We're going to do that in our bonus episode, but before we wrap up Ashley, can you tell our listeners, where can they find more information about you, the programs that you do, and stuff like that?
Ashley: Absolutely. I curate content daily for a Facebook group called Let's Talk about Sex ED with Ms. Ashley. I also have a website www.msashleysexedin-- as in indiana.com. and you can also, I think you can Google search, comprehensive sex ED and I pop up in Indiana.
Jase: Well, thank you so much at home.
Dedeker: Thank you.
Jase: To all our listeners at home, thank you for joining us and we would like to continue this conversation with you. On our Instagram, we're going to be posting our question of the week which is how do you talk to your kids about sex? I'm really interested to hear how people are approaching this and I know it really varies by how old your kids are and what your life is like. I think that'll be a great place to see the diversity of how many people handle this. Also, if you just want to talk about this episode, the best place to share your thoughts with other listeners is on this episode's discussion thread in our private Facebook group or discord chat. You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to patrion.com/multiamory.
In addition, you can share with us publicly on Twitter or Facebook, or Instagram. Multiamory is created and produced by Emily Matlack, Dedeker Winston, and me, Jase Lindgren. Our episodes are edited by Mauricio Balvanera. Our social media wizard is Will McMillan. Our production assistants are Schenewerk and Carson Collins. Our theme song is Forms I Know I Did by Josh & Anand from the Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is available on this episode's page on multiamory.com.