461 - My Partner Won’t Admit Their Jealousy - Listener Q&A
Welcome back to another Q&A episode! Some of the topics we address are:
Ending a triad relationship without ending all of the relationships involved.
Supporting a long-distance partner with loss and grief.
Building confidence as a late bloomer in regards to sex and relationships.
Acknowledging jealousy when someone refuses to do so.
If you’d like to submit a question to be answered on one of our future Q&A episodes, consider joining our Patreon community here!
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're diving into listener questions. We'll be talking about what happens when just one relationship in a triad has to end. Things like how to support a long-distance partner, how to build confidence when you've been a late bloomer when it comes to sex and relationships, and what to do when a partner will not acknowledge their own jealousy. A lot of great topics. We had so many amazing question submissions, we're so excited for that. If you're interested in learning more about our fundamental communication tools that we reference all the time on this show, and in the answers to these questions, you can check out our book, Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships, which covers some of our most used communication tools for all types of relationships.
You can find links to buy it at multiamory.com/book or wherever fine books are sold, even places that sell mediocre books probably carry it. Alternatively, the first nine episodes of this podcast also cover some of our most widely used and shared communication tools if you'd rather check it out there.
Dedeker: I pooled together the questions for this episode, and I'm really excited. We have some changes on the horizon for how we're going to be doing listener Q&As, and it's going to be great. Don't be scared. The changes are going to be awesome. One of those changes is, we did create a slightly more private portal for getting questions from our Patreon subscribers. People always submitted really great questions, but I do think having that extra layer where people are not submitting on a comment forum, for instance, in our Facebook group or in the Discord, I think people are just really, really vulnerable about what was going on for them. Basically, we have this huge log now of just so many great questions that I'm extra excited for us to be diving into, not just in this episode, but in our future listener Q&A episodes as well.
Jase: I see ahead here some really great sign-off names that people have given for themselves.
Dedeker: Yes. People should know that part of us setting up this question submission portal is that now you have to submit a moniker of some kind.
Emily: Oh.
Dedeker: You have to submit either at the very least, a pseudonym or you have to submit some kind of alliterative sign-off name.
Emily: Amazing.
Dedeker: Those have been fantastic, and I'm really excited to share these with everybody.
Emily: Excellent. Just a quick disclaimer before we get started here, we are now in our 10th year of studying healthy relationship communication.
Dedeker: Wow.
Emily: I know, amazing.
Dedeker: When are we going to get that PhD?
Emily: Oh. Hopefully, it's coming someday. They'll just give it to us because we've been doing so much work.
Dedeker: At least one PhD that all three of us can share.
Emily: Indeed.
Jase: Right.
Emily: There you go, without actually having to go to school for it. Yes, we really have spent a lot of time studying healthy relationship communication, but we aren't mind readers yet, and our advice is just based solely on the limited information that we have that you gave us in these questions so please just take what we say with a grain of salt.
Dedeker: Everybody's situation is unique, so of course, we encourage you to use your own judgment, seek professional help if needed. Ultimately, you're the only true expert on your own life. Whether or not you care about what us three chuckleheads have to say about your life and situation, your feelings and your decisions are your own. While I have tried to include as much information as possible from the questions that people submitted, some of them have been edited for time and for clarity.
Jase: It's so funny you were talking about giving us our honorary PhD.
Dedeker: No, a real one. Not an honorary one. A real one.
Jase: Sorry, a real one, yes. I was just watching this video that was about the history of the blue LED, which took decades to make. They had made green, and they'd made red, but blue was really, really hard just from an engineering standpoint. It was this guy named Shuji Nakamura, a Japanese inventor or a engineer who invented it. One of his goals while he was pursuing it was that he wanted to get his PhD because he didn't have one.
Dedeker: Oh, wow.
Jase: At the time, you could get a PhD in Japan by having four academic papers published and that was his path, that in his research for making the blue LED he published-- He's now published 937 papers or something.
Emily: Whoa, okay.
Jase: Super accomplished guy.
Emily: Definitely should get a PhD for that.
Dedeker: One question. Does 400 podcast episodes count?
Jase: Right.
Emily: There you go.
Dedeker: What's the ratio of 400 podcast episodes? How many academic papers does that equate to? If anyone knows that conversion, let us know.
Emily: I think at least four. At least four.
Dedeker: I would think so.
Emily: There you go.
Dedeker: I would think so. The amount of work and reading involved.
Jase: Yes.
Emily: Indeed.
Jase: I think, unfortunately, you can't get a PhD that way anymore in Japan-
Emily: Sad.
Jase: -but at least back in whenever he did that in the what '80s, I guess, something like that. Anyway, with that, let's get to these questions. All right. Question Number 1, can you end one relationship of a triad without exploding everything in the world? Here's the full version of the question to get some details. "I am currently in a triad relationship with Taylor and Charlie." These are pseudonyms. It formed organically and has been really wonderful for some time. We have done a good job fostering the four different independent relationships.
Mine and Charlie's, mine and Taylor's, Taylor's and Charlie's, and the three of us altogether. However, I am beginning to suspect that my relationship with Taylor has run its course. This is sad, but I feel grateful for the time we spent together and just thinking that our romantic chemistry has fizzled in a way that isn't working for us. We're bumping into some perpetual problems in the ways we deal with conflict that I think are ultimately incompatible for me in a long-term relationship. I'm happy to and even want to keep Taylor in my life in some capacity, and I also would like to continue dating Charlie.
I desperately don't want to put Charlie in the middle or make them feel they have to choose. I'm left wondering if I should keep dating Taylor and working on our relationship for the sake of everyone's happiness. Ultimately, I'm looking for advice on how to navigate ending one relationship in a triad without imploding everything. Is it even possible?" This is from Trouble in Triad Land. Well done on the name.
Dedeker: Good job, yes.
Emily: Beautiful.
Dedeker: They got the assignment, yes.
Emily: I think this is something that the three of us have actually done and did I think fairly well.
Dedeker: I've done it in multiple triads.
Jase: Really? More than one?
Dedeker: Back in the day, yes.
Emily: That's impressive. I guess I ended my relationship with both of you but then was also able to continue on in a relationship in a different way with both of you. The two of you ended up staying together while ending a relationship with me. I think intentionality, as always, is the name of the game here in terms of breaking up. So often people don't really think about if I am going to stay friends with this person, what is the best practices that I should be employing in order to do that?
That may include things like, yes, I need to take time away, I need to make sure that we have a significant amount of time for healing before we jump back into working on being friends, but I also think that some of those things potentially should be talked about maybe in the midst of the ending of a relationship in those transitionary moments because if they're not, then I do think that often a person may end. Then the relationship goes away and maybe resentment is there and challenge is there. Then you really never end up coming back together in some capacity that would evolve into a friendship. I think intentionality if you can, right from the get-go, is really important.
Dedeker: It sounds to me like this person, first of all, has a lot of clarity about the ecosystem of the relationship and relationships, which is great. It also sounds like they've done a fair amount of work getting clear on their reasons why they think this particular relationship isn't working, which I think is great doing that kind of work. I do think that it is really important to do that work, especially in a triad relationship of getting really clear on what belongs to which relationship, what's the stuff where I'm bumping up against problems with this particular person. What's just my own stuff? Am I projecting in some situation? Is there something going on in another relationship that's affecting me? I think getting really clear on the specific behavior that's giving you pause about this particular connection is great. That that sets you up to have a clearer runway for sitting down specifically with this person to talk about, "These are things that I'm noticing, and I don't think I can be in a relationship in this particular capacity. This is what I would like for our relationship moving forward. This is what I don't want to have happen anymore.
This is what I would like when I think about the triad relationship. This is what I would like when I think about our time together and what that means with this relationship changing." There's that bringing in that intentionality that Emily was talking about. Of course, you could be very intentional, be very clear about, "This is what I want for our relationship, this is what I don't want." There's a risk, it could still implode because feelings come up. Breakups are hard, and the person that you're breaking up with could take it very smoothly and very well, or they could have a really hard time with it, or they could be fine with your relationship ending, but then seeing you in a relationship with this other partner they're with could be too much, could be challenging.
I think, yes, you can do everything possible to be intentional and be very clear in your communication. Also, understand that there's going to be room for some feelings to come up. That may involve things like needing some time away or needing some time where you're not in contact or maybe needing some time where they're not around your relationship with their other partner potentially. There's definitely going to be ripples for sure.
Jase: Yes. A couple things that keep coming back to, again, in thinking about various relationships I've had that have de-escalated or changed in some way, that I do think there's this balance we need to strike between giving ourselves some of that space to heal and redo our thinking about that relationship. I think there's also this part where we kind of need to force ourself to keep that relationship alive and re-navigate it. It's just, you don't want to go too far on one extreme or the other. Like, if you were living together and together in front of each other all the time, that's maybe too much. If it's like, "I need some space and time away," and then you never really actively try to maintain that relationship if that is actually what you want, right?
Emily: Exactly.
Jase: You're not just doing that because you think, oh that's what evolved poly people do is they stay friends afterward. Maybe you don't want that, but in this case, it sounds like you do. That is something I will say that, for us, having this podcast while we were going through that, the breaking up and transition in our relationship between the three of us, was both good and bad. I think it helped us thread that needle though, where it was, having to talk about communication and relationships altogether was hard, and there were some emotional days doing that, but also it kept us from just easily drifting apart and just falling out of each other's lives.
In our case, it ended up with something that I think was even closer and better than it had started with. It took a while and having a commitment to that regular time together in our case, in the form of a podcast, helped us do that, I think.
Emily: Yes, I want to point out that this person is saying, "I don't want to put Charlie," the part of the triad that is going to still be in a romantic capacity, they don't want to put Charlie in the middle. I think that because you've set up really good established relationships, I guess, with each sector of the triad, that hopefully, that will make it so that Charlie doesn't end up in the middle of this whole thing. Again, that intentionality needs to be there, and you need to make sure that there is no pitting against happening ideally, especially on your end. Clearly, you can't do anything about what the other person is going to say or feel or do, but in terms of on your end, really make sure that you're not trying to place them in the middle of the situation. Charlie, in the middle of the situation.
Dedeker: I just really like calling different relationships in the triad sectors.
Emily: Sectors?
Dedeker: It feels much more sci-fi.
Emily: I was trying to figure out an elegant way of putting it, but yes, because it's all the different points of the triangle, but then also the relationship is the triangle in general.
Jase: Right.
Dedeker: Yes.
Emily: All of those different points, it sounds like you've done a good job maintaining that specific relationship. I think that that'll help you moving forward in terms of a decoupling or a transitionary period.
Jase: One other thing I wanted to add too, that is something that I think we just hadn't gotten into as far when this was going on for us just, what, nine years ago, eight years ago?
Dedeker: 200 years ago.
Jase: 200 years ago?
Emily: 2,000 years ago, yes.
Jase: Is looking at it from a little bit more of a relationship anarchy, smorgasbord kind of perspective-
Emily: Good point.
Jase: -because I think that when it comes to a breakup and thinking of it that way and calling it that, it brings with it a lot of other emotions, right?
Emily: Yes.
Jase: There's some hurt pride. There's some feeling of, "I should be a little sad, or I should be a little bit mad." It's not to say that that will go away, but it might just give you some more flexible ways to go about that conversation to say, "It's not like I want to break up-break up, but maybe I just want to change these aspects." I think it'll still be a hard conversation. I don't think it's a magic wand that just makes de-escalating easy, but it just might give you some other ways to have that conversation that can hopefully avoid some of those feelings of the hurt pride and maybe embarrassment that can go along with breakup and calling it that.
Emily: Yes, maybe come to the breakup talk or this change in terms of what it is that your relationship is going to look like talk and say, "Hey, these are the parts of the relationship that I really love. These are the things that I think that we do really well together, but there are also things that I think that we don't do as well together and that maybe I want to change or maybe I don't want to have in my life anymore in a relationship with you."
Jase: Thank you so much for the question, Trouble in Triad Land. We wish you the best of luck. Really, I hope that this works out. It seems like you've got a lot going for you, which is awesome. Let us know how it goes and know that you have an amazing supportive community with you in our Patreon Facebook group and Discord group that we have for our Patreons. All of the questions for today come from people in our Patreon group, which is an amazing supportive community. This is on my mind right now because we just recently did one of our monthly video processing sharing groups, which are fantastic.
We have those at our $9 tier where you get these monthly video calls. It's just, already having a cool community is great, and then getting to have this place where you can share in a face-to-face way and support other people. What I love about it actually is that, in addition to all the amazing sharing, we have a lot of people who show up and don't even come with anything they themselves want to work through, but they just like to be there to hear what's going on and offer support and encouragement to other people. They've been coming every month for years in some cases.
It's just so cool getting to show up, see those familiar faces, and see how supportive everyone is. It's really, really amazing. If you'd like to join that, and you're not already a Patreon, you can go to patreon.com/multiamory and check out our different tiers to join there. We're going to take a quick break right now to talk about some ways that you can support this show by checking out our sponsors. We're very selective in the sponsors that we pick for this show. Also, it's so important to us that the main bulk of our podcast that we put out there is available to everybody in the world for free.
One of the ways that we do that is by having sponsors, and so, thank you so much to the companies who have decided to sponsor this show. If you could please take a moment, listen to the ads, and if any seem interesting to you, use our links and promo codes. Those will also be in the description because that does directly help support our show.
Emily: We're back. All right, let's move on to the next question, which is, how do you support a partner who is long-distance? "My comet partner, Prince, they/them, has had several destabilizing events happen over the past few months from family stuff to sickness to a beloved pet dying. They have become a bit less communicative/more tired lately. I am wondering if there's a way I can still support them despite our long distance, signed Longingly Long Distance."
Dedeker: Oh, the LLD.
Jase: Another good one.
Dedeker: That's a good one.
Emily: Yes, that's good too.
Dedeker: Yes. I'll go with the low-hanging fruit answer, which is the, you could just straight up ask if there's a way that they would prefer to be supported at this time. Separate from that, of course, the direct communication, the direct asking can be really helpful, and some people will respond to that very well. For other people who are going through a lot of shit, that could be overwhelming. It could be hard to even think of what it is that they need right now or what it is that would be helpful, or they may not feel comfortable asking or may not feel like they can really ask.
I'm a big fan of coordinating with this person but coming with some suggestions of your own. Taking some of that mental labor off of their plate and thinking about the ways that you are willing to offer to support them. It could be something like, "Hey, I was thinking I would really love to have some groceries delivered to your place. Would you like that? Can we coordinate that?" Or, "What if I hired someone to come clean your house or clean your apartment as a one-off?" Or it could be, "Hey I want to send you this really funny book that I really like and maybe we can talk about it." Or, "Hey, what if we set up a date to watch a movie together, a comfort movie of your choice that maybe I haven't seen, and we'll sit and watch it together?"
I do think that there's a piece there of taking some of that decision-making off of their plate. Sometimes even if they don't maybe necessarily resonate with the things that you've suggested that could get them to counteroffer with, "I don't know if I need groceries delivered, but it would be helpful if you did yada, yada, yada," right? Or, "It could be helpful if you did X, Y, or Z."
Jase: Yes, I love that.
Emily: Yes, those acts of service or gift-oriented ideas, I think are really lovely and helpful. It's really nice, I think, to just do something out of the blue for a partner when they're least expecting it. That can feel just like, "Hey, I am being noticed and being loved in this moment, even though I didn't particularly ask for it." I love that idea. I think also it's important to give your partner space if they need it. Sometimes that may be what they are most wanting in times like this, is that they just need a little bit of, "I have to process. That also means that I potentially am going to be less communicative during this time just because I'm working through stuff with a therapist or working through stuff on my own, or maybe with the family members who I've been going through things with.
That therefore means that I am going to be less communicative with you." Ideally, you can have that conversation with them and set up expectations of, "Okay, how long do you need?" Or, "Can I still check in on a biweekly basis, for instance, because I really want to know that we're still okay and that we're still doing well? That you know that you're appreciated and cared for from my end and that I know that as well from your end."
Jase: I think that's such a good point to bring up because there can be that situation where if I'm feeling just so overwhelmed with stuff going on in my life, it could just even be busyness, but especially if there's a lot of emotional stuff going on and I'm just having a hard time, if I'm retreating into myself a little bit to process and make it through that, and I feel like my partner in wanting to help me, becomes another obligation or another burden, it's like I have to convince them that I'm happy enough that I like being with them.
Emily: 100%
Jase: That can start to feel like a chore even though on both sides it's coming from a loving place of caring for each other. I just want to highlight, I especially love what you said, Emily, about setting up an expectation though. It's not just like, "Okay, I guess I'll just let you drift away and not know what's going on," but say, "Hey, what if we checked in in a week? Would that be better?" Or even just asking, like Dedeker said, giving some options. This time it could be, "Hey, I'd love to chat with you a little bit each day to see how you're doing, but no pressure to do that if you don't want," or, "Maybe we should just talk once a week so that you have time.
I don't want to get in your way, or maybe every other week," to show them, "Hey, these are some options of things that we could do for that," to, again, take away some of that decision-making for them and let them pick or say, "Oh, no, actually I didn't have a problem. I think that's great what we're doing," but to give them a way to talk about that more easily.
Emily: Yes, I think creating relationships where you and your partner feel safe enough to say to each other, "Hey, I actually need a little bit of space in this moment," is really powerful and really wonderful. That's something that so often in relationships we take that for granted, our space and our time because it's just assumed that if you have the time, you're going to be spending it with a partner. Or if you have multiple partners, then trying to fill your time with them, all of your time with them in some form or fashion. I do think if you can create a relationship where you're able to say, "Hey, I feel like we've been talking a lot recently," or, "I feel really overwhelmed with X, Y, and Z thing, I just need a little bit of space," and for that to be okay, that's really powerful and really wonderful and will enable the two of you to come back together when you're feeling good.
Dedeker: Thank you, Longingly Long Distance. Best of luck with this, and good for you for having the heart that really wants to support someone that you love and that you care about who's going through a difficult time. Moving on to our next question. "Do you have ideas for building confidence as a late bloomer, sexually and in relationships? I grew up in a culty religion and never had any sexual experiences until I got married at age 23. I'm now divorced at 29, and I'm dating casually for the first time. I sometimes get in my head and feel inadequate compared to people I date or have sexual experiences with due to my lack of "experience" or even just confidence.
I'm learning things at almost 30 that many people learned in their teens or early 20s. Most of the people I'm going out with have been sexually active since their teens. While I've been able to do lots of reading and introspection, it's still hard when I find myself feeling like I lack the resources to have happy and successful relationships. As a guy, part of this probably also has to do with patriarchal expectations of men to "take charge" in these situations, which I'm not super comfortable doing. I feel like my feelings of inadequacy are impeding this exploratory stage of my life.
Do you have any tips for getting out of my head and just enjoying the exploration?" Now that was sent in by Tony Pizza, which is a name we will accept. Now,-
Emily: It's a pretty name.
Dedeker: -it doesn't have to be about your location, it doesn't have to be about your situation. It doesn't have to be alliterative, although we love those things, but it does have to be delightful. I think maybe that's the only baseline requirement. Our standards for delightful are pretty low, so don't worry about that. I'm quite delighted by Tony Pizza.
Emily: For sure. 100%.
Jase: Tony Pizza is great.
Emily: I want to have some Tony Pizza tonight.
Jase: I just had some Tony Pizza this morning.
Emily: Oh, nice. Well done.
Dedeker: Everyone wants a slice of Tony Pizza, but Tony, let's talk about your actual situation though. I think I can relate to some of this, having grown up in a somewhat culty religion myself that had a lot of emphasis on purity culture, where me coming to my own sexuality and exploring sexuality with others for sure felt like it was mired in a lot of stuff I had to unpack and undo, and compared to other people my same age, definitely felt pretty held back. Heck, honestly, to this day, there are so many films I still haven't seen because they came out at a time when I was in this super intense religious household.
There's a whole swath of pop culture I feel like I missed out on. I just want to say that first out the gate that, can relate. This is difficult, and there's not a lot of people who can necessarily relate to it. A little bit tangential here, but something I might recommend is looking into some support groups or communities that may have formed around people who either are ex-members of the same particular religion or just people who have de-converted from their religion, in general, could be a helpful space. It may not be a space where you can talk about the graphic details of your sex life, but just getting some support, in general, from other people who are in your same boat who maybe missed out on some developmental milestones, could be helpful in general, just to feel like you're a little bit more seen and maybe have some people who can share with you the things that have helped them.
Emily: I'm interested to hear what the patriarchy-
Dedeker: What the representative of the patriarchy has to say. Jase?
Jase: Oh, boy. As a card-carrying member of the patriarchy, what can I say?
Emily: Somebody who has probably been affected by the patriarchy in a way that Dedeker and I have not just because you are a dude. How about that?
Dedeker: Your particular flavor.
Jase: Sure.
Emily: Yes.
Dedeker: Yes, I do think I would love to hear from you in this. Tony Pizza is sharing with us that a layer on top of this is this expectation that men have to take charge in sexual romantic situations.
Emily: Exactly.
Dedeker: They have to know what they want, and we're expecting that they are going to be the ones who are taking the lead at all times. How's that for you?
Jase: Gosh, all this is hard because it really varies quite a bit depending on who you're with, who you're dating, how you're feeling. Something that comes up when I do have very frank conversations, vulnerable conversations with other men about sex and confidence levels and things like that, there's a whole range from people who just happen to have found communities and relationships where that's not the case, where being very submissive, if you want to put it that way, is like, "This is where I fit in and this is what's worked for me. This is the community I've found, these are the partners I've found."
Dedeker: You don't mean sexually BDSM submissive?
Jase: I do actually.
Dedeker: Oh.
Jase: I think often they're a little tied together. Not in terms of some kind of more intense, full-on dominant submissive type dynamic, but like a little bit of that because there's also a lot of women out there. Again, I'm assuming based on this statement that we're talking mostly about heterosexual relationships here, that there are a lot of women out there who want to be able to just say what they want and tell you what to do, but feel like they can't because of patriarchy and those expectations. That said, though, I also think that most of the men that I talk to and with my own experience, it's more trying to find some middle way because, yes, that is how we're socialized.
That most people you meet who are women expect a certain amount of, I guess, confidence at least, if not taking charge, but a certain amount of confidence, or this foregone conclusion that you always are comfortable with whatever and always want to do it, which might not be the case for you. That's something I've struggled with a lot because I'm not always down for everything and don't always want to do it. That's been a hard thing to figure out how to communicate that in a way that doesn't seem like, "Oh, no, I'd want to, because I'm a man. I just don't want to with you because you're ugly."
Dedeker: Sure.
Jase: That's the story people hear. That can be a challenge, but I would just encourage you to really face that head-on and have those conversations. Just be upfront about it because you're also very unique and exciting in a way because of this situation. It's like, okay, maybe here's a guy who doesn't also have all the shit that a lot of guys have from their early sexual experiences. This actually could be a plus for everyone involved.
Emily: Yes, I think that's a great point. Depending on the type of interactions that you're having, yes, some interactions are going to be fairly quick and just for hookup's sake, for instance, and then it might be a little bit more challenging to actually discuss in the moment, like, "Hey, I am less experienced than maybe the average Joe at this point in my life." That might be more difficult if you are just having a hookup of sorts, but if you're entering into a relationship with someone, I would like to think that people worth having a relationship with would be understanding of the position that you're in and able to just have a conversation with you about it.
Set up, again, expectations from the beginning of like, "These are the things that I'm interested in trying. This is something that I don't know a lot about. This is something that I'm excited to work towards in terms of being a sexually realized human being in a way that I've never been before. How can we collaboratively work together to get me to that point if you are somebody that I want to continue having a relationship with?" I understand that may be a lot for some people, but maybe the types of people that you do want to enter into a relationship with would be willing to have that conversation with you.
Dedeker: Yes, okay. I'm sorry that I'm taking it here. This is just where my brain went, that it's almost like, with sex, you got your soft skills and you got your hard skills as it were. Jase: Hey-o, okay. Sure.
Dedeker: It really is a hey-o because I do think that, traditionally, historically, when we're taught, or we have this idea of someone who's sexually skilled or skilled in bed, we do think about the hard skills, literally, technique. I think about so many years of Cosmo magazine, or so many sexual technique books out there that are literally about specific technique. Some of which is legitimate, some of which I think is not legitimate. I do think that we suffer under this idea of, "Oh no, I need to have this particular technique," or "I need to have all this experience to learn this technique in order to know how to pleasure this other person," yada, yada, yada, yada.
For some people, sure, that can be great, but for me, maybe this is just me, I'm more interested in the soft skills of, are you enthusiastic about having sex with me? Are you able to give your focus and your attention to your partner? Are you able to communicate what you want, what you don't want? Are you able to ask them what they want and don't want? Are you able to listen if they're giving you feedback about what they want or how they want things to be different? Are you able to incorporate that feedback? To me, those feel like really the most important parts where, if someone has that, I don't care if they have zero sexual experience, I'm more excited by the idea of sleeping with that person than by someone who's read all of the sexual technique books and has slept with a ton of people but doesn't have those soft skills if that makes sense.
To piggyback off of what Jase was pointing out, I think really, the good thing here is that there may be less unlearning that has to happen in order for those things to come through.
To give a specific resource, I really love encouraging people to go check out Betty Martin's Wheel of Consent books and resources because I think that's a really great framework for learning some of those skills of communicating and listening and getting a sense of how to negotiate pleasure in a sexual experience. What often holds people back from being able to absorb that is they have a lot of unlearning that they have to do, of bad habits. I mean both men, women, non-binary people, everybody. That our culture doesn't set us up with really good habits around these things. If this person has less unlearning to do, that may be to their advantage.
Jase: Now, I'm going to piggyback on you piggybacking on me, so kind of like we're doing a front flip in the air, and then re-piggybacking the other.
Dedeker: That's a hard skill, for sure.
Emily: That's insane.
Jase: Yes. There's a couple pieces to this. One is that, yes, I feel like the complaint that I've heard more often from women about men that they have sex with, is men who don't pay attention. Even if they're well-meaning, but it's like they, at some point in their life, learned some kind of way to do something. Like some way to use their mouth or their fingers or whatever.
Dedeker: Yes. Oh my goodness.
Jase: They just are like, "That's the way it needs to go." Maybe they learn this from porn, maybe they learn this from an early partner, maybe they even learned it from a book, but they're like, "Oh, I was told somehow this is what's good." More of the negative feedback that I've heard from women when they're just complaining about guys that they've dated is that. It's like, "I'll even redirect him to do something different, and then he does it for a second, but then goes back to what he did before or just doesn't know how to take that feedback."
Dedeker: Emily, have you ever had a man try to put a warm washcloth on your vulva after sex?
Emily: No.
Jase: Oh.
Emily: Wait, is that a thing?
Jase: Is that a thing?
Dedeker: I've had at least three men do that.
Jase: Huh.
Dedeker: I'm pretty sure it's from a book somewhere because, in all of those instances, or at least in two of the three instances, the person has said, "Okay, this should feel really good." It doesn't feel bad. I'm like, "Sure, comforting like a warm washcloth, it's nice."
Emily: Fascinating.
Dedeker: It's like a mother cat's tongue or something, but that's the thing where I'm just like, "This is so weird and so specific, this must be from a book."
Emily: That is very specific.
Jase: Yes.
Emily: Fascinating.
Dedeker: If you're out there listening and you know what book that is from, or what influential piece of media that is from, let me know.
Emily: Do these men, just after you cum, they're like, "Wait. Wait, one second, I got to do something," and then they heat up some water and put it on a washcloth, and then they're like, "There. There, there."?
Dedeker: Pretty much. They don't go to, "There, there," and pats or anything like that, but that's pretty much how it's gone.
Jase: See, the funny thing is, as you're describing this, I'm like, "This sounds amazing. I want someone to do this to me. This sounds great, actually." Maybe some people, they're like, "No, that is nothing to do," yes, but it sounds amazing to me.
Dedeker: If it's cold out, sure, a warm anything.
Emily: Huh.
Jase: I don't know. Something soothing after actually sounds really nice.
Dedeker: Okay, I will take that note.
Jase: Okay.
Emily: Fascinating.
Dedeker: Listeners out there, maybe you can take the note, let us know how it goes. Ask first if your partner wants that.
Jase: Sure, yes, see if they want to try it.
Dedeker: If you know the book that this came from, let me know, please.
Emily: Wow. You learn something new every day.
Jase: Really, truly. The other thing that I wanted to say about that though is, yes, on the one hand, just learning a thing and then thinking, "Oh, this is how I do it," caution against that because that's a complaint that I've definitely heard many times. I think, on the other hand though, that something that does come with experience, and this is more just saying this so that it's something you can be thinking about and be aware of, is that assuming you don't fall into trap number one, then if you are taking feedback, trying different things, trying to be very attentive to see what is good, what is this person liking, that you start to build up, I guess just a larger data set of, "Okay, I've had someone else before who seemed to not respond very well to this, so this is a different thing that I could try."
That's where reading books or watching videos, or going to sex-positive events and talking to people, or hearing presentations can be helpful. Think of it more as you're just adding a lot of different options of things that you might try in different situations rather than learning a good way to do it because you could have one person who has sex with someone else and says, "Oh my God, that was the best sex I've ever had. That person is amazing." Another person could have sex with them and go, "Nah, it was okay," or, "I really didn't like it even."
Dedeker: Sure.
Jase: I just want to really emphasize that, to, "I'm sure that you're already on board with this."
Dedeker: There's no one way to do it.
Jase: Yes. Don't think that this is a specific skill. I think of it more as you can get a larger tool set and a larger data set, but then each person that you're sexual with, including yourself, is a whole new thing to learn and figure out, and that it changes over time, which is something I've talked-
Emily: It does.
Jase: -to Dedeker about before, of how different things that you used to like more or less and they've evolved over time. I think that's cool. That's what keeps it fun, but I hope that takes a little bit of burden off of you thinking, "I've got to know it all. I've got to have this all figured out.
Emily: Thanks, Tony. We appreciate this question. I think it's really important to realize that all of us out there have different experience. You may feel really experienced, but then you meet someone who has a ton more experience than you, and maybe they're not actually that good of a lay. It's fine. Just enjoy the journey, enjoy the ride and good luck.
Jase: Love that. I mentioned earlier in the episode about our amazing Patreons who show up to our video discussion groups each month. They're fantastic, but we also have a lot of people who are Patreons just so that they can get the ad-free feed. In their podcast player, they get to listen to this and skip over this part where we do the ads. That's also a way you can support this show more directly if you'd rather do that instead of listening to the ads. That also gets you into our private Discord, as well as our Facebook group. Our Discord is amazing.
We have so many channels, and we have an amazing moderator team that's constantly adding more as people are requesting new topics. It's just a really, really cool community. I honestly can't even keep up with it. There's so much activity in it every day. If you want to be part of that, go to patreon.com/multiamory. Now, we're going to play a couple more of our sponsors. Really do take a listen to them. They support our show directly in the hopes that you'll support them. If you go check them out using our links and promo codes, they'll continue to support this show.
We really appreciate you taking a moment to do that. Now, we have one last question for this episode. "Do you have any advice for coaxing old polys, poly much before 2015, into acknowledging when their own jealousy is motivating them?" Here's the background information. "Former partner, Anne has been poly since the 2000s. They will discuss the necessity of poly people to see and manage their own jealousy when it appears and often has wise advice about it for others. However, they can get deeply jealous and insecure about their partners developing strong feelings for others.
At which point, all of the words we use are deployed to act on it or to justify it. This isn't acknowledged. Suggesting jealousy could be involved is "denying their experience," or acting on that jealousy is "seeking accountability." Boundaries are implied, and when I point it out that they hadn't communicated them, that was "demanding emotional labor." I ended that relationship last year. I was far from blameless in this. I've been reflecting on this as part of my own repair. I'm wondering how I would have introduced Anne or other old polys to the idea that admitting jealousy isn't the unforgivable sin it was when they started." This is from Miffed in Minneapolis. Again, fantastic sign-off. So good.
Dedeker: Do I get to feel miffed for being an old poly?
Emily: Yes. I was like, "Well, all of us, we just are old."
Jase: I will say, yes, I do think that the culture has very much changed-
Emily: Absolutely.
Jase: -to before where it's like jealousy was the rookie mistake number one. If you feel jealousy, you're failing at it. You need to do more personal work. You need to get through that and then, yes, it can lead to some of those mental gymnastics to try to justify to yourself even, how you're feeling or how you're acting. Yes, definitely, that's not nothing.
Dedeker: Yes. We were just talking about this the other night that I do think in the early to mid-2000s, there was so much emphasis that if you're feeling any type of way, really, it's down to you to figure it out. It probably has nothing to do with your partner and what your partner is doing. It makes sense to me why that sort of, I guess schema arose out of the culture if we think about going back even before that, where I do think a lot of the practice of polyamory, again, riding the wave of the swinging movement, was very couple-centric, very hierarchical.
I think there was a lot of a sense of people can be controlling of their partners, and it's totally fine. I get how there was part of this backlash against that that put this emphasis on doing more personal work as opposed to trying to control your partner's behavior, stuff like that. I understand why that would happen, but yes, I do think we see this in the pre-2015 poly folks, where I think we do have a harder time being able to admit to feeling jealousy in particular. That may be admitting that feels more like, oh, that's a personal failing if you're feeling that way.
Now, that being said, with this particular situation, this is a very tricky one because it's a really tough call to make. Chances are really high that if you try to tell someone whether they're pre-2015 polyamorous or not, if you're trying to say, "No, you're just jealous right now," 100% that is not going to go over well. It's not going to go over well.
Jase: Yes.
Emily: I think in terms of being able to deal with jealousy, I will recommend again our 50 Ways to Handle Jealousy episodes Part 1 and 2, which are 394 and 395. You can definitely check those out. We just have to acknowledge that jealousy is something that everyone is going to feel at some point or another. It's absolutely a thing that is normal. When you're adding multiple people into a dating equation, it's completely understandable that you're going to feel it from time to time. I think just changing the narrative around that, in general, if you are able to, yes, introduce that to older polys in some way and say, "Hey, yes, I want to acknowledge that this is an uncomfortable feeling.
I want to acknowledge that this may incite some sort of discomfort or reaction on your part, but I want to be honest, and I want to be able to discuss with you some ways in which I feel maybe our relationship is lacking and that might be a reason why these feelings are coming up for me. I've done some soul-searching. I've taken some time to look at things in our relationship that maybe I feel we could be doing better and that has caused me some jealousy from time to time." Dedeker, as you always say, what are you longing for?
Dedeker: Sure, yes.
Emily: That's really the question here. With jealousy, what is it that you are longing for?
Dedeker: Yes. I think for myself, or at least to think about this person's particular situation as they're sifting through what happened in this relationship, I'm assuming they're trying to think about the next time around like, "What if I end up in a similar situation again?" Again, I don't think trying to tell someone, "Hey, you're jealous and you're not admitting it, and you need to shape up," that's not going to go over very well at all, but you can be working to create an environment where it feels safe enough for someone to be able to be honest about those vulnerable feelings.
Like the stuff that Emily is saying. That involves things like being emotionally honest yourself in a kind and gentle and compassionate way. It may mean you taking ownership of the fact when you're feeling jealous. If that's an environment that you want to be in, where you want your partner to feel safe enough to talk about those things, then that's good. I worry a little bit that this may be me reading between the lines too much on this question, but sometimes the way I've seen this play out in a toxic way is a little bit of like, "Okay, if I can get my partner to just admit that it's just jealousy, I don't have to do anything."
If I can get them to admit, oh, it's just their own feelings, then that absolves me of any responsibility. I hope that that's not the case or wasn't the case in this particular relationship because I feel like even if your partner does say, "Hey, I'm struggling with some feelings that are mine, and I take ownership of them," it doesn't mean that you get to be like, "Great, have fun with that, see you," necessarily.
Jase: That's not how I read this, but I do have something actually similar that I wanted to say coming from a different angle. That's the, as Emily mentioned, with jealousy, you're just like, "What are the feelings behind it? What's going on?" There have even been times in the past where we've talked about this idea that maybe jealousy itself doesn't even exist as an emotion, and it's more this shortcut descriptor for a whole group of other feelings and emotions that can be a little amorphous. I would say in that sense, doing what Emily was saying and just saying, "Okay, how could I have the same conversation that I want to have, but without needing to use the word jealousy?"
As a little mental challenge of, "How could I ask the same questions I want to ask? How could I bring up the same concerns just without using that word?" I actually think this is a good practice in general because it helps you to think of really what's going on underneath. Even if you're fine admitting, "Yes, this is jealousy," saying, "Okay, how would I describe it if I couldn't use that word?" can be a helpful way to examine it. I think the other piece of this is that, from the examples of saying, if you approach this person, trying to talk about what they're doing, their actions here, so it's that suggesting their jealousy could be involved or when they act on that jealousy, that then they get defensive about it and say it's taking accountability or not being clear about boundaries.
They say, "Oh, you're demanding emotional labor from me." That it sounds like a lot of this was in response to actions that they were doing. Obviously, this is going to be hard, and maybe the person just will be stubborn and won't respond to that and just be like, "No, absolutely not." Then it's like, yes, don't be in a relationship with them. I know that I say that like it's easy, but sometimes it just doesn't work out. Not every person is a person that you can be in a relationship with like that. It sounds like, in this case, there are probably some times where it's like, "Hey, I don't care why you did it, but this thing that you did wasn't okay." That, again, is a way to say, "How can we have this conversation without even needing to talk about why you did it? It's just the fact that you did it that's the problem."
Dedeker: Yes, I like that. I like that clarification of getting down to the nitty-gritty of the actual actions and behaviors because I think I could see underneath this as we're starting to get into the nitty-gritty of like, "Do you feel jealous?" "No, it's not jealousy." "This is why it looks to me like jealousy." "No, this is why it's not jealousy." That doesn't sound to me like a very productive conversation trying to get to the bottom of why this person is acting in this particular way, or why they're feeling a particular way, or things like that. I like that clarification.
Thank you, Miffed in Minneapolis. I hope that this is helpful. I hope that as you're sorting out what happened in this relationship, it helps give you some insight and some ideas about how to prevent something like this happening in the next one. Speaking of jealousy, we want to hear from everybody listening. On our Instagram stories this week, we are throwing up this question, how has your relationship to jealousy changed over the course of your life? Really curious to hear everybody's responses. Also, if you want to be one of those who's able to submit a question for our future listener Q&A episode, you can join our community by going to patreon.com/multiamory.