430 - Is Honesty Always The Best Policy?
Talking about honesty…honestly
Most of us learn from childhood that honesty is the best policy, but in this episode, we’re discussing when that might not be the best option. Real life is a lot more nuanced in practice, so we go into depth about some different takes on honesty, the honesty spectrum, and how to decide if you should disclose something or be honest about a situation.
Radical honesty and selfish honesty
The term radical honesty was actually coined by Dr. Brad Blanton and trademarked in 1997. Some of its core principles are:
Lying is the primary cause of suffering.
Living honestly is the antidote to lying and the root of its power is in distinguishing noticing from thinking.
You can only notice in the moment, and you can only notice three categories of things: sensations, thoughts, and your external surroundings.
Sharing honestly what you notice frees you from the suffering caused by attachment to lying, withholding, phoniness, and ideals.
Sharing honestly what you notice also deepens love, connection, understanding and forgiveness (eventually).
Radical honesty is a living, walking, talking, out-loud meditation that moves you from reactivity to being a creator of your own life.
Radical honesty is a good starting point for a discussion about honesty because it deals in such extremes. We have to wonder, is there such a thing as too much honesty? The best parts of radical honesty lie in the mindfulness it promotes, so is the “out loud” part necessary, helpful, or hurtful?
Often, someone might sugarcoat being rude or mean as “just being honest.” We’ve dubbed this selfish honesty, and it includes:
Unsolicited criticism:
Giving harsh or critical feedback under the guise of "being honest," especially when it's not asked for or when it's given without considering the other person's feelings. This can sometimes be more about asserting superiority or power than about genuine concern or constructive intent.
“Honesty” as a way of hiding the truth:
Sometimes, a person might be honest about minor issues or differences as an excuse to break up, when the real reason might be that they are interested in someone else, they're not ready for a committed relationship, or they have other personal issues they don't want to confront or disclose.
Guilt-driven confessions:
This can include confessing past mistakes or wrongdoings that no longer impact the relationship, but the individual discloses them mainly to alleviate personal guilt. This type of honesty might bring relief to the person confessing, but it could cause unnecessary pain or distress to the other person.
Offloading your own baggage:
While openness is generally positive, constantly sharing every negative thought, worry, or self-criticism could be a form of selfish honesty if it puts an emotional burden on the other person or is used as a tool for seeking attention or validation.
Gossip:
This could be seen as selfish honesty when a person shares confidential or sensitive information about friends or family members with others, potentially damaging those relationships, under the guise of being open and honest.
T.I.E.D.
Unfortunately, there isn’t an easy way to decide if you should be honest about something or not. However, we have come up with an acronym to help you evaluate and be mindful of others when choosing to disclose something or not.
Truth:
Is it true (objectively or personally)?
Intent:
Who am I sharing this for and why is it important to share?
Who am I sharing this for? My sake or theirs?
Is it to help the other person somehow? Or is it to communicate something to help myself?
Do I want to share this? Or do I think that I should share this, even if I don’t want to?
How important is this for me?
Effect:
Will it prevent or cause harm?
Will it prevent further hurt or injury (physical, emotional, or financial)?
Could it cause more harm than it attempts to prevent?
Realistically, how do I think this might be received? Is it likely to have the effect I intend (see Intent above)?
Delivery:
Not just what is said, but who says it, to whom, and when.
Am I the right person to communicate this?
Is this the right person I should be telling?
Is this the right setting for delivering this message?
Is this the right time? Or at least a necessary time? Is it urgent?
Acknowledging that it may not have the intended effect, what is the best way/time to hopefully improve those odds?
Transcript
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Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we are honestly going to discuss the topic of honesty. As children, we're all taught that we shouldn't lie, and things like honesty is the best policy, but then in our actual lives, we seem to learn the opposite sometimes. Where does the truth lie? What about extremes like radical honesty? What about times when just being honest can mean just being a jerk? We're going to explore all of that and more on today's episode. If you're interested in learning more about our fundamental communication tools that we reference all the time on this show, then you should check out our book, Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships, which covers some of our most used communication tools for all types of relationships. You can find links to buy it at multiamory.com/book or wherever fine books are sold.
Alternatively, the first nine episodes of this podcast also cover some of our most widely used and shared communication tools. With that, let's get into this topic. I was looking at our list of topics that we've covered over the last couple of years and just seeing what's something that we haven't really taken a dive deep down into and really gotten into. I was actually surprised that we talk about honesty and we talk about honesty when it comes to communication a lot but we haven't done one just focused on this. It was a fun one to look into and put together for this episode.
Just to start off, I mentioned in the intro that we're taught as kids things like honesty is the best policy and that you shouldn't lie. What were some of the messages that you two learned? Anything besides that? Or would you say that sums up the whole message?
Emily: Well, it's so pervasive. Between watching children's shows and going to Sunday school, it's all that honesty is the best policy, that becomes repeated to you. At least this was my experience, it becomes repeated to you so often it starts to lose its meaning. Especially if you're not that thrilled about it in the first place, it becomes very easy to ignore. Like “Eat your veggies,” where I'm like, “I know that's what I was supposed to but I really don't want to and I'm not going to.” I know for myself; I grew up in a household with a very reactive parent. It definitely was not a safe environment to necessarily be honest all the time.
For me, it went in one ear, and where I could acknowledge, even from a young age, I'm forming my sense of morality and ethics and I can understand why it's good to be honest, but functionally I need to survive and not be killed by my mom.
Jase: Geez.
Emily: Not that that was actually what was happening, but I think in my tiny five-year-old brain, that's how it feels. Right? It's not really safe, to be honest.
Dedeker: That's really interesting because you do learn those little aphorisms or sayings that honesty is the best policy and things along those lines. I believe I was definitely taught also that it's okay to not necessarily be 100% truthful if it means that you're not going to be hurting someone and to get out of-- Hurting someone's feelings, I feel like that to me was taught above just being radically honest, which we're about to get into that being kind, even if it's not telling the whole truth is potentially more important than being honest and harming someone.
Jase: That's where it all gets tricky, right? Is that thing of where do you draw the line, between, “I'm not going to say this thing because I don't want to hurt this person's feelings, or it's going to make our relationship more difficult and I don't want to do that, and it's not really worth it.” Versus, “Now I've gotten myself into more trouble by not saying this earlier on, and now it's a bigger deal for me to try to bring this up now.” There's a lot of those little debates and challenges that go on. It's also interesting to think about this in terms of the big range of stuff where honesty is something we have to think about.
On the one hand, it's, “Do I come clean about a mistake I made?” That's what we were talking about as kids, right? You're taught you should tell the truth and yet if you don't tell, sometimes you don't get caught. Then you don't get in trouble, or your mom doesn't get mad or whatever. Maybe you just fudge the truth a little bit to make yourself not quite look as bad and then you don't get in as much trouble. So, “That worked out. I should keep doing that.”
Emily: Well, but what about you Jase? What was it like in your childhood?
Jase: I feel it's all the same stuff. You're taught those aphorisms of honesty is the best policy and your parents get mad at you if they catch you lying. If they don't catch you lying or if they don't catch you bending the truth a little bit to make it not look like you stole this toy from your brother, that he had left it and you just picked it up and were on your way to return it to him. Or something like that.
Emily: Is this a real-life example?
Jase: That one's not a real-life example. I can't think of a good real-life example now. We had stuff like that all the time, I don't even want to get into all the stories. With siblings, you run into that a lot or just with friends or with teachers or whatever. It's like, What's the version of the truth that makes me look better,” especially if I'm worried about getting in trouble. It's like you get those messages. I did learn something super interesting a while back that actually I didn't even think about this till just now, I didn't look this up ahead of time.
Basically, there's this question that comes up in evolutionary biology and evolutionary psychology stuff. That's this question of yes as humans it seems like it would be to our advantage to be good at lying. To not get caught. When we get caught for our lies, bad stuff happens and that could jeopardize our place in our community. If we get excluded from that we could die. The question is, well why do we as humans have so many tells when we're lying? Why aren't we all more sociopathic? Why do we blush? Why do we make weird faces? Or why do we give ourselves away?
The argument I've heard made that I thought was really interesting was that, reactions like blushing, we evolve to keep doing because they cause us to get caught in our lies sooner instead of later when the consequences would be much worse.
Dedeker: Interesting. It's a Lie To Me, that show that you and I watched, just--
Jase: Yes. I really enjoyed that show too. It's all about those ways that we give ourselves away when we're lying. It's that idea of maybe that was something that we evolved to do intentionally. If you think about it, it's like if I say a lie and I get caught right away, people might be upset with me but not as much as if I kept this lie up for years and then they find out. It's the thing that frustrates me so much in all the romantic comedy movies where there's usually some big secret that one of the characters is keeping from the other. I'm just like, "If you had just started with this earlier on, it could have been what a weird misunderstanding. Let's move on with our lives.”
Instead, it's now this catastrophic bomb that's gone off and you have to spend the whole second half of the movie recovering from it. Enough about us just pontificating about this. Let's talk about what we're actually going to go through in this episode. When the topic of honesty comes up, radical honesty is one of the things that comes up. We're going to talk about that a little bit first, what that really is, where that came from, what it's all about. Then we're going to get into something that we've labeled selfish honesty, which is the opposite thing, we've talked a little bit about.
If you're not being honest to save someone's feelings, would being honest actually be selfish? Would you be a jerk to do that? Then in classic Multiamory fashion, we're going to teach you a tool that has a super cool acronym. It's tied, T-I-E-D but we will get to that toward the end of the episode as a way to help determine is this something that I should be honest about. Is this someone that I should be saying this to? Is a nice little way to examine that if you're ever in a situation trying to figure that out.
Emily: Let's dive into radical honesty first. This is a term that was not only created but also trademarked by Dr. Brad Blanton. We have to say radical honesty, T-M, trademarked it back in 1997. I looked up the term radical honesty on Google Trends because I was trying to think, “When did I first learn about this. I know I first read about it.” I know, I think in a Slate article back in the day.”
That timing does track, it seems like on Google really peaked in 2005, 2006, 2007 or so. There's another peak in 2010, and then it's gone through some teeny tiny spikes since then. I think that tracks from my remembrance of first encountering the term.
Jase: I have this very clear memory of 2005 of coming across this term, also in an article. I don't remember where it was, but this article exploring the concept and the author of the article tried it for a month as part of their experiment in writing the article. It was interesting and definitely got me thinking about it. Then I've seen it pop up now and again. Like in that show Lie To Me that Emily mentioned, in the first season one of the characters is radically honest. He's a radical honesty person. I don't know what you call it.
Dedeker: Proponent of radical honesty.
Jase: Adherent. Yes, an adherent. Then they just dropped that plot line in the second season maybe because they're like, "Oh, shit. this is trademarked."
Dedeker: We have to say Brad Blanton all the time.
Emily: If I recall from the first article that I read about it, I do remember getting the impression of, "Ooh, this guy might be someone who's difficult to be in a relationship with." Yes, sure enough there's some controversy floating out there about Dr. Blanton being verbally abusive in his workshops, but that's not what we are here to talk about or to debate. This is just a starting point for talking about honesty. It's our entry point starting on this particular extreme end of the spectrum.
Dedeker: On radicalhonesty.com they lay out some core principles of what radical honesty entails, and they say things on there like, lying is the primary cause of suffering.
Emily: Let's unpack that right away. I got a lot of opinions about that.
Dedeker: I don't know that it's the primary cause of suffering. I feel like there's a lot of internal turmoil over years of potential abuse or anger or just things from your past or whatever that maybe is the cause of suffering, but not necessarily lying unless that's a part of your trauma.
Emily: I'll make a devil's advocate argument. I can see that if you tie it to this idea of never fully being able to be ourselves, having to hide aspects of ourselves, having to hide our opinions and not express them, having to stifle ourselves, I could see that argument, a lot of suffering comes from that, right?
Jase: I'm not sure if that's what they mean, but I appreciate that response. I actually will say to this site's credit-- We will probably come down more on the credit-critical side of it in this episode, but to their credit, one, I guess there's a range of opinions of people who practice this and how they present it. I will say just from actually looking at the copy on their website, it is very much based in a mindfulness approach to a lot of these things. That it's based on Dr. Brad Blanton, PhD, TM, based on-- He trademarked his own name, I guess. No, just kidding.
His experience working with clients was what led him to this conclusion of lying as the primary cause of suffering. Could be influenced by what types of clients he had, what situations those people or couples or whatever were in. I think it does cover what Dedeker was talking about, of that not just being lied to causes suffering, but doing the lying also causes suffering because it makes you work harder to then keep up those lies or to keep track of them or when you get caught or that you're not expressing yourself honestly, all that stuff.
Emily: To be fair, I'm going to take us on just a very tiny tangent before we're opening us back into this list of core principles. I did just write an article for Vice a few weeks ago that was literally about some practices that are normal in non-monogamous culture that are not normal in monogamous culture and I do think there's a different relationship to honesty. I will say my experience working with some clients who are dating more traditionally or dating more monogamously, there are so many things where I just want to be like, "Just be honest about what you want or what you're thinking or what your intentions are. Good lord, just please." I do see a lot of suffering that comes out of that. Anyway, I digress. We should lay out the rest of what these core principles are.
Jase: On that subject of mindfulness, the second one here is not obvious right away. I had to read more on their site about it, but it is living honestly is the antidote to lying and the root of its power is in distinguishing noticing from thinking.
Dedeker: Can you break that down a bit?
Jase: Exactly. It doesn't make a ton of sense just reading it as it is, but my interpretation based on the paragraph they had later farther down that page explaining it is something that we have talked about some on this show, but it's distinguishing in a mindfulness way, what is it that I'm actually noticing versus what are my and thoughts and opinions about that.
Dedeker: Got it.
Emily: That makes sense.
Jase: Again, to their credit, they're like, be honest, but it's not necessarily saying be honest about all your opinions about everything, but more about the facts of what you're observing as much as possible or what you’re feelings are about something rather than a snap opinion. It's like there's a little bit of a mindfulness thing stuck in there, which to me is the one saving grace for me, not just outright dismissing the whole thing.
Dedeker: To go along with some of the stuff that you had said before, we all have to be aware of our own internal cognitive biases that we have due to a variety of things in our life. I think that those may color or change or cause us to maybe not be as honest with ourselves about certain things as we potentially could be. I don't know, going back to the non-monogamy thing, Dedeker, I do think sometimes maybe there are people out there that are like, "I would rather actually live non-monogamously, but because of societal pressure or the relationship that I'm in or whatever, I feel like I can't do that," so I'm not necessarily living as authentically or as honestly as I could be.
I don't know, the way that all of this is written feels fairly surface level, but then maybe when you dig deeper into it, it does get really granular and specific into some of those causes of suffering. I'm not going to throw the baby out with the Bradley-- What is his name? Dr. Bradley Bathwater, that's his name. Bradley Bathwater. The next one, I also am not totally sure what the heck this is saying, but we're going to read it and then we'll try to figure it out. You can only notice in the moment and you can only notice three categories of things, sensations, thoughts, and your external surroundings.
Jase: Again, this is about that mindfulness thing where it's saying, part of the argument is, “You can only notice something when you notice it.” Rather than, “Now I've thought about it, I have a different memory of it,” 'whatever. That's part of their argument for, you're honest right away. It's not like I'll eventually be honest, but it's like I'm going to be honest about the thing right now while I'm in the moment of experiencing it and it's true.
Dedeker: What if you're a chewer?
Jase: It doesn't seem like-- Maybe it's better for chewers than for spewers. I say or I'll think all kinds of shit that I don't think two seconds later and that's part of the whole chewers, spewer thing that we've talked about before. I don't know. It is a little bit interesting, but that idea of you can only notice three categories of things, which is your sensations, the actual physical sensations, your thoughts about those things, and then I guess noticing your external surroundings.
Dedeker: Your external surroundings.
Jase: I don't quite know what they do.
Emily: I think I'm formulating an example, but I want to get through the rest of these-
Dedeker: Sure.
Emily: -before diving into that.
Dedeker: Here we go. Next one. Sharing honestly what you notice frees you from the suffering caused by attachment to lying, withholding phoniness and ideals. I don't want to share honestly everything that I notice.
Jase: Again, it's the idea of that I'm going to remove my own suffering because I'm just going to share right away rather than having that debate about do I share this or not.
Dedeker: That feels so self-involved.
Jase: I see we're getting into it. This is what this whole episode about. I love it.
Dedeker: Exactly. I'm just like, what about the other person that may not want to hear what the fuck you think about that particular thing? I don't know. All right. Look, there's two more. Here we go. Sharing honestly what you notice also deepens love, connection, understanding, and forgiveness eventually.
Emily: You put that in there with eventually.
Jase: I think the idea here is what we talked about of, I guess it's better to be honest sooner about something, even if the other person doesn't like it, rather than holding onto a secret for a long time, which I can't help but read this one and just think they're talking about affairs.
Emily: Sure.
Dedeker: Sure.
Jase: Where Brad's like, "I'm just going to tell you about all the women that I have cheated on you with so that you can eventually forgive me."
Emily: Again, I want to come in with a devil's advocate. I'm not sold on these, but with the deepening love and connection piece, what that brings up for me is this idea that if I'm in relationship with someone where I know I can trust what they're saying, I can trust that their no is a no and their yes is a yes, for instance, I can trust they're not just trying to people please or they're not just trying-
Dedeker: Sure.
Emily: -to have fun and tell me what they think that I want to hear, even if it's hard, I think there's something nice about that. That's something that I value in my relationships now, even though I'm not in relationships with people who are radical, honesty, adherence, TM, that at least if I feel like there's a baseline of tactful honesty, I think that's important to me. I can see maybe along those same lines, that's where this particular tenant comes from.
Jase: It's funny, I did think about that of people I've known in my life who are a lot more blunt than others. It's like, yes, it can be a little jarring at first, but it is a little bit relieving to just know that if--
Dedeker: Maybe refreshing.
Jase: Yes. It's like, “Yes, maybe you're a little bit abrasive to be around.” Also, I feel like if you are-- as long as they're not stepping into, “I'm telling you what I think are objectives truths,” but they're not. If it is more like, I think this about this, I like this. I don't like this. It is like that like I said, a little bit freeing to go, I will trust you. Then when you say you like something, if that's something that I did or something about me, I'll trust you more because you're also going to very bluntly say what you don't like, and so I do think there is something to that.
Dedeker: The final one is radical honesty, is a living, walking, talking, out loud meditation that moves you from reactivity to being a creator of your own life. This guy sounds like a self-help geek or something,
Jase: Well, that's the whole program, right?
Dedeker: Yes.
Jase: They have six-week programs that you can sign up for and workshops and all the stuff. All the usual-
Dedeker: That's the log line right there-
Emily: Oh, for sure, yes.
Dedeker: -for what radical honesty is-
Emily: I don't think all of this is terrible. Again, yes, there's, as Emily said, I don't throw the baby out with bathwater.
Dedeker: The Bradwater.
Emily: The way that I'm trying to understand this, I'm trying to think of an example. Let me imagine my partner comes up to me and they say, "How do I look? Does this outfit look like it'll be okay for the place that we're going for dinner tonight?"
Dedeker: It totally doesn't.
Emily: It totally doesn't. If I'm really trying to be mindful and just pay attention to, okay, what is it that I'm noticing versus what is it that I'm thinking and judging? That's maybe some saying something more like, I noticed that your clothes are wrinkled as opposed to, you look like a slob. Or there's no way that's going to fly. Will that get the result that I want? I guess then I have to follow it up with, will you iron your shirt or will you change clothes?
Dedeker: Yes. That's a request.
Emily: Yes. I guess I also have to be honest about what I'm hoping for as the result of sharing that. That's maybe the closest tamest example I can think of in relationship, but I'm sure this could go down a pathway of getting into much more vulnerable and much more painful feeling territory pretty quickly.
Jase: Yes, and to me, there's always that fear of like Emily mentioned of, do people want my thoughts on this right now? I guess it's one thing of, do I look good enough to go out?
Emily: Yes. They've asked.
Jase: It's like, I'm going to give you concrete feedback. That, if I'm radically honest, do I jump in at a work meeting and offer my opinion about something that was not asked for? Do I do that to partners, to random people on the street? I don't know. I don't quite know if that's part of the equation or not.
Emily: I guess there was nothing in here about people asking for your honesty. There was nothing in there about that.
Dedeker: Well, that's the thing, I think used in conjunction with something like the Tri-force where somebody is asking for something of you and you are not giving unsolicited advice or just saying whatever the hell pops into your head at any given moment like some people do. I think that maybe it can be a powerful tool and a powerful thing to be able to be truly honest in a moment without so much judgment. If you are just stepping in and saying whatever the heck you want, then that, I think can fall into a category of like, “Hey, I really didn't need to hear that right now and that was very uncalled for and not cool.” I think you have to be careful with all of these potential tools, don't weaponize that shit, #TMTMTM.
Jase: Yes. I've recently been reading this book called The Blind Assassin by Margaret Atwood, and-
Dedeker: You love her.
Jase: I do. The main character is this older woman who's writing about her life from child growing up and growing up through the early 1900s through then the Great Depression and World War I and World War II, and all this stuff. She was raised in a wealthy family. One of the things that does come up is some of the people who are her caretakers and the older women in her life when she was a kid, do a lot of this withholding of information or giving information at a strategic time as a manipulation strategy. I feel like we see this a lot on political TV shows or movies and stuff too. It's that idea of you gave me some piece of information.
You're like, “I think we should tell people about that.” You're like, “No, I'll take care of it. Don't you worry about it. I'll make sure this gets to the right people.” Then you withhold it until just the right time as this form of having control and manipulation of being the one to give them this information at the time you think it will have the impact you want. To go to that other extreme, I've also seen that shitty behavior or that way of approaching things that feels yucky too.
Dedeker: Definitely.
Jase: Something that I do appreciate about at least thinking about the concept of radical honesty of like, what if you did just always say what you thought and what you observed and what your feelings were without stopping to think, “Oh, should I say this or not?” The thing I appreciate about it is that maybe is a better starting place of like, starting from a place of, I'm going to be honest and upfront about most things. Then to make that decision of, “Well, actually maybe this isn't very nice of me to say. Or maybe it's not my place to share this thing,” or something, but to start from a place of assuming I should just be honest.
That goes back to what Dedeker mentioned of one of the differences I think when becoming non-monogamous or polyamorous, is that it opens up a little room to be a little more honest about certain things. I do think that tends to encourage a little more of that immediate honesty about like, “Oh, I just was at this workshop thing and I was really attracted to this person in my class,” even if nothing comes of it. If you know that you and your partner also date other people that feels safer to say and is more okay than that like, “Ugh, should I or shouldn't I say it?”
I do like that idea of starting from a place of I should share and then thinking, “Well, or maybe should I not,” rather than starting from a place of I got to keep everything secret and control people's information and then, “Oh, maybe I should be honest about this.”
Dedeker: In terms of being radically honest, there are some things about this that it sounds like we, a little bit, like there's more mindfulness aspects that are good perhaps, or that we can take little bits and pieces from. Is this needing to say everything out loud that you feel, is that even really necessary? Is it helpful for the other person or is it potentially hurtful? I've been saying, I think I am on the side of fawning clearly, as I've talked about so many times, and because of that, yes, maybe I am not always 100% truthful about like, “Yes, you look great,” or whatever.
It may be because I don't want to get in trouble or I don't want the person to hate me. There are moments where it is perhaps not necessary to say absolutely everything that you think out loud. What do you two think about that?
Emily: Well, I think we're going to get into that because my personal opinion is sure, in relationship, maybe it is more relational to say something like, “No, you look great. Don't worry about it.” Versus saying something like, “Yes, I totally love that sex act,” that you really don't actually love, right? Where like, sure, maybe you're protecting the other person's feelings, but at what cost? At what cost?
Dedeker: It's a really good point.
Jase: Before we go on to explore the flip side, the dark side of honesty, as it were, we want to take a quick break to talk about how you can support this show. If this is information that you find valuable and discussions that you find entertaining and interesting, the best things that you can do is to take a listen to our sponsors and go check out our website, check out our book. All those things really directly help support us in being able to continue putting this show and this information out there to everyone in the world for free.
Emily: We're going to keep trucking along this spectrum of honesty. The next category that we want to explore is, what we've decided to call selfish honesty, introducing-- What about these times when being honest, it is actually just an excuse for being a jerk. Selfish honesty, we've not trademarked this term. I don't think anybody has trademarked it as far as we know. Yes, it's just our term for labeling the dark side of what can be considered honesty, which I think we've been dancing around a little bit already in this episode. Some examples of this, things like unsolicited criticism.
This idea of we give maybe overly harsh or overly critical feedback under the guise of just being honest, and particularly when this hasn't been asked for, or it's being given in a way that really has zero consideration for the other person's feelings. Again, this can sometimes be more about asserting superiority or maintaining power more so than genuine concern or some constructive intent. I've found that this can be a microculture thing as well. A microculture within a family, within an industry, within a particular institution that sometimes there's been generations of people who've been giving unsolicited harsh criticism like that stuff perpetuates.
Jase: Interesting. I was just thinking about your example of, does this look good for the event that we're going to or for this thing? Whereas it's one thing to, maybe even before you leave the house to be like, “Oh, this is more of a dressy thing. Do you maybe want to change into something else?” Versus you're at the event and say, “You're really not dressed appropriately for this.” Where it's like there's nothing, they can do about it and now they just feel more self-conscious and shittier, or than they already did if they had noticed that themselves.
I have a friend who has a bad habit of this where if you buy something that he thinks was not a good purchase or say like, “I saw this happen where someone got a tattoo,” and it's like you don't tell someone that you don't like the design or that it could have been this other way or could have been better after they got it. Or after they bought the thing. It's like that's not helpful. It's like maybe that could have been helpful before, but it's very much not now. There's no benefit coming from this. I would say a radically honest person might justify that and say, that is okay. I don't know for sure.
I'm not a radical honestarian but here's another one. Ironically, using honesty, I'll put that in scare quotes as a way of hiding the truth. Sometimes a person might say they're being honest about some minor issue or something they're upset about as an excuse to say like, break up or get mad at someone, when really, it's something else. Really, it's that I'm attracted to somebody else. Or really, it's just that I don't feel attraction to you or I don't want to be with you and I haven't for a while and I've just been looking for enough little things to be mad about, to justify it to myself and to you.
Or maybe to punish someone by being upset about one thing when really, it's because of something else that you're not over, you're still upset about some way of like, “Oh, I'm just being honest. I'm just really communicating to you how I feel.” It's true but it's hiding an actual bigger more important truth.
Dedeker: This next one is guilt-driven confessions. Perhaps you have something that's really eating you up inside and you decide, “You know what? I'm going to just come out with it. I'm going to tell my partner or the person that I'm in relationship with in some way the truth about a past mistake or wrongdoing,” that really no longer might impact the relationship. Maybe for example, the one that I think of as you had an affair and that person is totally out of your life now, but you still really want to go and tell the partner about it. That might be to alleviate personal guilt.
It really may do that for you. You may feel relief, you may feel better for telling the person that you did have this affair, but it could also cause unnecessary pain or distress to the other person. I think there are absolutely reasons to disclose something like that. Then I know there are on the other side and we'll get more into that. People say, “No, definitely don't disclose something; especially if it's a one-off.”
Emily: This is a super tricky thing. Like Emily said, we have a whole sidebar about disclosing affairs that we're going to get to but this is really tricky to determine because it's when we do need to come clean about something or we do need to confess something, part of it is always going to be relieving your own guilt. It's distinguishing when is it selfishly doing that versus when is it doing it because this is the right thing and I'm trying to repair and reconnect and come back into my integrity.
Dedeker: It's years after the fact.
Emily: The example that came up for me with this wasn't an example of an affair, but I remember years ago having a client where I forget now the details but essentially something happened where her partner sat down and read to her his entire journal that he'd been keeping about what was going on in their relationship currently. As in completely unfiltered thoughts about her and her behavior and the relationship. I was like, “Oh that's so hard.” Of course, you should be honest about what you're struggling with or honest if you have some complaints or longings about what you want from a partner.
Giving the completely unfiltered thought in the sense of now I just get to have it off my chest and I don't even need to do the work of curating this or trying to communicate this in a more compassionate and gentle way. You just have to take the raw material and deal with it. With my client, it wasn't really mixed result. On the one hand, she was glad that she knew what was going on in her partner's heart and brain. Then the other hand she had to sit with, “Wow, he said this about me and that about me.” Then that was really difficult. It was a little bit of a wash, honestly. Got some benefits for being honest but then I think also caused some new damage.
Dedeker: Yes, that's exactly this next example which is offloading your own personal baggage and openness can be a positive thing. If you are sitting your partner down and literally sharing all of these negative thoughts or feelings or worries or criticisms about them, criticisms about yourself, any of the above that might really truly be harmful to them and put then unsolicited or unwanted emotional burden on them. You may be using it as an attention-seeking tool or validation for yourself or any number of other things that maybe that person just didn't need in that moment or it really catches them off guard or it's just nefarious in its intent.
Jase: I would clarify with this one, I think this one comes up without any nefarious intent, but it's that like I want to be honest and be open with my partner, but like dumping all my baggage on them or whether it's criticisms of them or even my own fears and things. Again, there's this balance, of yes, seek support from your partner and share with them and don't hide those insecurities from them and just keep them bottled up. At the same time, if it goes too far on the other side of just, “I'm offloading all of this on you,” can feel like, “Cool, so now it's my job to carry all this for you.”
Dedeker: They shouldn't be your only mode of support either, which we talk about a lot.
Jase: That's also a great point.
Dedeker: If you have things that you're really needing to work out something like a therapist, maybe a better place to offload those feelings rather than your partner who may feel, “Crap, I don't really have the tools in my toolbox to help my partner in the ways that they need.” Finally, gossip is another example that we have here. It can be maybe seen as selfish honesty when a person shares confidential or sensitive information about friends or family members with others, but it could really be potentially damaging to those relationships.
If that's done under this guise of being open and honest, is it really actually a good thing or an okay kind thing to do. Gossip is tough, that's something in our culture that we do so much and it's almost seen as something that can bring us together like groups of people together to gossip about others. It can be really shitty and especially if it eventually gets back to that person.
Emily: I'll be the first to say I love sharing goss. I love hot goss. I did read a study once upon a time again going down this Evo psych rabbit hole that theorized that maybe we evolved that pleasurable neural pathway around gossip because back in the day in our family groups of 150 to 250 people or whatever, that was the best way for information to spread. I want to talk to you about the news that I heard three degrees separately from me. The hot goss about Kevin Bacon. I got to tell you because we don't have a news service or social media or it literally is just spreading news through gossip. It does feel like there's also a line into, because you specifically said here, you’re sharing confidential information or sharing sensitive information or sharing information that's been told to you in confidence.
Jase: I'm just distracted because you brought up Kevin Bacon because my phone number for years has been on some websites that attempt to give you phone numbers of celebrities. I will a couple of times a year get weird awkward calls or text messages with people looking for Kevin Bacon.
Dedeker: Seriously?
Emily: Yes. Seriously.
Jase: Seriously. For years. Yes. Amazing. What's funny is, even when I tell them I'm not, they often don't believe me.
Dedeker: They're like, “Kevin, come on.”
Emily: “Be honest Kevin.”
Jase: They're like, “I totally understand. I just want to let you know how big an impact your movies have made on my life and it's really heartfelt shit. I'm like, “I am not Kevin Bacon. Please, I'm really not.” Anyway.
Dedeker: We should have just told him like-- That really made my day. Thank you so much for telling me that. I'm so glad that my movie has impacted you that much.
Emily: That's playing with fire. That's opening a door. That's opening a really weird door. It could make a fun rom-com, I will say.
Dedeker: Oh gosh, I'm going to call you every day.
Jase: You're right.
Dedeker: Amazing.
Jase: Let's come back just briefly. I don't want us to spend a whole episode on this. The thing about disclosing an affair, like Emily brought up, this is one that I remember several years ago I listened to a podcast episode where they had a therapist on who was famous for coming down really hard on this. Of like, if you had an affair and it's over and you're still together with your partner, do not ever tell them. If you ever do that, you're being a selfish asshole, and you're hurting them for no reason because you're not doing it anymore. It's done. That was the first time I'd ever heard that concept presented. I was like, "Huh, that's interesting."
Then in preparing for this episode, I looked that up again trying to find it. I couldn't find exactly what podcast or episode that was because it was a long time ago. I found that there are several therapists who've written blogs or things like that, and including some opinions from Dr. Ruth herself, the advice column, Dr. Ruth, that have come down on that side of, with the caveat of assuming that you're not still doing it, that you're going to hurt your partner and hurt your relationship for no benefit. It was interesting to think about that. It's such a hot topic.
People get very emotionally activated even thinking about this concept of like, "Oh, but I would want to know if that happened to me." It's like, "If it's not anymore, would you? How would it change things?" That's a tough call. It gets into that playing God stuff.
Dedeker: I have a good friend who used to live long distance away from her partner and cheated on him all the time with various people over the years. Then she eventually moved in with him and now they're married and he doesn't know about any of it. I knew about a lot of it, and that was challenging on my end to be like, "Yikes. I guess I'm just like keeping confidence of this person." That's an interesting one too. Do you tell--
Jase: Yes, that's a great point.
Emily: Like, gosh, so tricky.
Dedeker: Yes. There are definitely people out there who would be like, "You have to tell the person who's being cheated on." I never did. I was like, "This is not my business. I don't want to tell anyone and rock the boat. Yikes. That sounds awful." I know that that would destroy my friendship with this person too. I don't know. They're married now and I guess they're happy so good for that.
Jase: You just brought up such an interesting part of it too, is like with that being the other person, you could approach it in one way of well, who are my loyalties to? You could also think about it in terms of just, is this my place? Am I the person who should be doing this or is it not like? It is a tough thing.
Dedeker: I'm not in a relationship with them and I don't know their full story. Maybe actually they have talked about it at some point and it is okay, and I just don't know that or something. Or maybe I'm lying to myself.
Emily: Oh, that's so tough. I think that's another one where I think people would have very strong opinions on both sides.
Jase: Hot debates, yes.
Dedeker: For sure.
Emily: Real hot debate for sure. There's that school of thought. Again, on the other hand, bringing it back to the affairs thing, if you continue to have an affair and you don't tell about it, you don't come clean, the more time that goes on, the more likely it is that you are going to severely hurt the other person when you are inevitably caught. It's less likely that the relationship is going to recover the more time that goes on. There's some anecdotal evidence floating out there from some therapist blogs that say there's maybe about a 50/50 chance of a couple recovering after an affair is discovered.
We don't have any empirical evidence for that necessarily. Again, that's just all anecdotal. I don't know about this one. Here's the deal. I don't believe in karma, but I also believe in karma. In the sense, I don't believe necessarily in cosmic magical karma, but I do believe in their, often, not all the time, but often, being natural consequences for your actions. Whether the consequence is now I have to live with this and I have to live without guilt and shame and anxiety, or sure, maybe the affair is over, but then I find out that I contracted an STI and gave it to my partner, and now I need to come clean about why that may have been the case.
Or I have to make the choice to tell another lie and spin that tangled web. For me, I feel like, okay, sure, maybe if you decided to end it or maybe you just had a one-night stand and you're like, "Whatever, it's over. I'm off the hook. I'm not going to do it again and so I don't need to come clean about it," I'm still like, there's still some ties there of all the ways that this could come back to bite you in the ass.
I think I'm of the opinion, and maybe it's better to come clean when you have more control over that, rather than it could be 10 years later, but then this person pops up back again and is like, "I'm going to show up and come clean to your partner about what our relationship is and then ruin everything."
Jase: Yes, that's true. The thing I found really interesting when this was first presented to me in that podcast was, they're talking about, to go back to how we got on this topic, which is that guilt-driven confessions thing of the idea that like, say you had this affair, let's assume for the case of this argument that some time has already gone by, say you did this and it's been like a year or whatever since then. The STI thing, you've determined that's not an issue. There's not some like impending risk or danger here and you're not doing it anymore and you're not planning to, but you're like, "Is it eating you up inside that you have this guilt over this thing which you did?"
That the argument that this therapist was making was, by coming clean and telling your partner, you are letting yourself off the hook a little bit and making them suffer a whole lot and potentially ruining your relationship. Versus that guilt that you're carrying is like part of your punishment for the thing. I was like, "Huh, I'd never considered it that way." I don't know. I really don't know what I feel about it and my advice is, don't cheat--
Dedeker: non-monogamy?
Jase: Yes. Instead, have the conversation first about opening up your relationship or get out of that relationship if you're not happy, or figure your shit out instead of doing this, but that's a tough.
Emily: My experience having worked with a lot of clients who sometimes are actively cheating or they're actively this archetype of the "other woman," "the other person" in a relationship with someone who is cheating. I will clarify that if I'm working with a couple or I try it, I will not work with people if someone is actively not disclosing something to their other partner, because I don't want to be on the hook carrying that knowledge as the professional helping them. I've had to enforce that boundary sadly a couple of times with people.
Anyway, I've worked with a lot of people, individuals mostly who are cheating, are involved with someone who is cheating on their partner. The way people get into these situations, it's very rarely super black and white. It's messy. Someone's really lonely and they've been striking out dating for years, and then they find someone and they connect and it's amazing. Then they find out six months later, "Oh gosh, you've been cheating on your wife this whole time, but now we're emotionally involved and I don't want to--"
It's like the way that people get into these things is pretty messy and that doesn't make it okay, but I do try to have some compassion and empathy for that.
Jase: With all this in mind, we've seen that making that decision is tough. Now, of course, we're coming to the part that everyone has been so hyped about this whole episode, which is, of course, the acronym that we've come up with to make a little tool to help out with some of these decisions, or at least help you get some clarity.
Emily: Many of us have heard some version of what we'll call the threefold guide for determining whether or not you should say something or share something. These three questions. Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
Jase: Just as a fun piece of trivia, as I was doing research on this, I learned I didn't know this, but this is often attributed to Socrates as having said this, this is not true. This is just 100% false. If anyone tells you that--
Emily: It's not kind, and it's also not necessary to say that it was Socrates who said it.
Jase: That's not true at all. There are several people that it's been attributed to, several different sources where they did actually say the thing. Socrates, just flat out, that's not in any of the writings. That was never written down that he said that. But one is this missionary, Amy Carmichael in the 1940s. She wrote about it in some of her writings. Reverend Charles B. Taylor in the mid-1800s also said something like that. There's also similar writings from India. There's a Muslim proverb that's very similar to it. There are also some writings in some Buddhist poly sutras that go back to third century BCE that are again, similar.
There's these little variations on, sometimes instead of, is it necessary, it's like, is it appropriate or is there propriety. There's like different words, different concepts, but this idea of a threefold test is very common, and we don't know who the original source of it. It seems like it's one of those things that's just been around long enough and has had enough sticking power. The problem with it is that I think it is a really useful thing and I've definitely used it in my own life at times to help explore the question of whether I should talk about something or be honest about something.
I think it's a bit limited, and I think it mostly applies really well when it comes to trying to decide if you should gossip or not, mostly because you'll almost always come up with no to at least one of those three. Then you'll go, "I shouldn't share this thing." Or it's like sharing something about someone. It's like, "Maybe it's true, but is it kind or necessary? No, I won't say it." You look ugly at this event and you can't do anything about it, like we talked about. "Sorry, you look ugly." It's so harsh.
Dedeker: My face was like, aargh. Emily was horrified.
Jase: Something, of telling you something that's not helpful, and it's just hurtful. I think it can be useful for that. It breaks down if you try to apply it to some of the stuff we've been talking about, like disclosing about an affair or someone else's affair, or you really don't like that thing that they've been doing in bed recently, or that you're attracted to somebody else, or any of these more serious, a little more nuanced things that's not just this simple test.
We looked at this and based on all the stuff that we've talked about, a lot of different people's writings and things, put together, this tool to go through a series of questions to ask yourself to help determine why you may want to say this thing or not. It's not quite the same test of like, "It has to be yes to all three to pass." This is more for things to consider to help you get some more, maybe, honesty, we could say with yourself about this thing, why you may not want to say it, or why you may want to say it.
The acronym is TIED, T-I-E-D. I thought of it originally as in your mind, you're having this debate about whether to share something or not. It's tied. There's not a clear winner. It's a tie. Then Zedeker.
Emily: Yes, I heard it as your wonder woman. Your wonder woman, there's something with the Lasso of Truth. Are you tying yourself up? I'm like, "It doesn't make sense if you're tying someone else up because that's trying to get them to tell the truth. You're trying to determine, should I say something?"
Jase: You want to tie yourself? Are you tied ?
Emily: Do I want to do some self-bondage? Do I want to tie myself up with the Lasso of Truth here? Am I fit to be tied?
Dedeker: There you go.
Emily: T-I-E-D. T stands for truth, right out the gate. Is it true? This thing that's on your heart, on your mind, and you can sit with that. Am I going to tell a lie? Am I going to tell? Or is it true? This is probably the simplest part of this rubric.
Jase: I think another little extra piece to that is with is it true is a little bit of that like, "If this is just my opinion about something, that's a different ." It's kind of a truth than an objective truth. Just again, not to say if it's yes or no, that 100% changes things, but is this true true, or is it just true for me? That might influence how you would approach the rest of these questions.
Emily: That's a good clarification. That's the T, the T is for truth, and then I is for intent. What is your intention here? You can ask yourself some questions, "Who am I sharing this for? Why is it important to share this? Am I sharing this for my sake or for the other person's sake? Am I sharing this with the intention of helping the other person? Or is it communicating something so that I can help myself?"
Again, in laying these out, it's not the case that one of these is wrong and one of these is right. Sometimes it can be quite valid to share something for your own sake. You can ask yourself, "Do I want to even share this? Or do I just think that I should share this, even if I don't want to?" Again, that doesn't mean that you necessarily shouldn't, but it's really important to have this information. Again, asking how important is this intention for me.
Jase: Then after you have a sense of why, then look at, what would the effect be. E, effect. Will it prevent or cause harm? Maybe I want to help this person, but if I really think about saying it to them, is it likely to help them or actually just hurt them more? Will it prevent further hurt or injury? That could be actual physical injury, but it also could be emotional injury or even financial injury of disclosing the amount of debt that you're into a partner or something like that.
Or that you have just got into a bunch of gambling debt after your recent trip to Vegas. Lying about that would be potentially causing a lot of financial harm to that person, assuming your finances are entwined in some way. Examining that a little bit like, "Will it actually do the thing I intend? Or could this cause more harm than it attempts to prevent?" Then, realistically, how do I think this might be received? How likely is it to have that effect that I intend? In addition to why you want to do it, what do you actually think the effect will be? As best you can evaluate that.
Dedeker: Finally, the D in TIED is for delivery. you want to think about not just what is being said, but also who you are as the person saying it, who you are saying it to, and when you are saying it. We talked a lot about regarding the affair thing. If you're saying this truth way, way after the fact, is that actually a good time? Wouldn't it have been better if you said it much, much earlier? If you tell somebody at the party that they're not dressed appropriately, is that really the time when you should be doing this or not?
Jase: After they got their tattoo that you don't like it.
Dedeker: Yes, exactly. Also, you should be wondering, "Am I the right person to communicate this thing? Maybe I should be a little bit kinder in my communication as the spouse or the partner of this person. Maybe it would be easier if it came from a friend, for example. It wouldn't be as harmful or as challenging to hear from somebody else."
Jase: Or even just, is my opinion even wanted in this situation at all? It's like that all offering unsolicited advice thing. Like, "Am I actually the person who should be giving this here? Am I actually being asked for this?"
Dedeker: Also, is this the right person that I should be telling? That really goes down in the gossip category. Should I be talking to this person about this thing? Maybe not. Maybe definitely not. Is this the right setting for delivering this message? Maybe not at the party, maybe not in front of a group of friends where you're going to be digging on your BFF or your partner in front of a bunch of other people. That might not be the best time to disclose this information.
Is this the right time or is it necessary in this moment? Is it super urgent? Is my partner having a rough time because they're on their period or they're about to walk out the door and you're like, "Wait a minute, I have to disclose my affair or something?" That might not be the greatest time. Acknowledge that it might not have the intended effect. If that's the case, then what's the best way or the best time to hopefully improve those odds and do this in the kindest, gentlest, most understanding way possible, especially if it's something that may potentially be really harmful and challenging for this person to hear?
Jase: Yes. Even if we're taking out harmful from it, because that's a little bit of a amorphous term. If it's just it'll be challenging, a good example is bringing up to your partner that you're interested in having some open relationship or polyamorous relationship or something like that, that question of, yes, again, right before they go to work or right after you got in a fight or right while they're feeling shitty and overwhelmed at work or something is just not going to be a great time for them to be able to process that information.
That's an example of something where if you went the radical honesty route of like, "As soon as I have that thought, I'm going to blurt it out." I don't know that that's actually the right way to go about that.
Emily: I wouldn't want this to go the route of, because I know sometimes when you have to deliver bad news or news that you know is going to impact the person and bring up some negative feelings, it can be really easy to get stuck in that there's never a good time, and so I just hold on to it perpetually. Time, setting is a consideration. Also, I think thinking about things like intent and effect also need to be weighted as you're trying to make this decision about whether or not to disclose something to someone.
Jase: Totally. Again, with all of this, the point of it is just to ask some questions to really get to the bottom of it, rather than trying to apply some simple, I would argue, surface-level way of getting off the hook of having to make the decision, whether that's a radical honesty approach or whether it's always keeping everything secret or coming up with some other random policy that it's just like, "Oh, if I just follow this all the time, then I'm fine." That's not real life.
At least I don't think so. This is a way to really help get to the bottom of this for yourself and try to make that decision. To recap it real quick, it's TIED, truth, intent, effect, and delivery. Truth is, is it true and is it true objectively? Intent, why do I think that I should or why do I want to say this thing? The effect. What do I think the effect will be? Does that line up with what my intent is here? Then the delivery of, "Am I even the right person to be saying this at all, is this the person I should say it to? How can I present it in a way that is effective and compassionate without, like Dedeker said, putting it off forever because there's never a good time."